Daily Kos

TANG Typewriter Follies; Wingnuts Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 08:37:04 AM PDT

(From the diaries -- kos)

Against my own better judgment, but because I believe that the more rapidly charges are countered, the better, I spend a goodly portion of the last day researching -- shudder -- typewriters of the '60s and '70s.  As everyone on the planet no doubt knows by now, the hard-right of the freeper contingent -- specifically, LittleGreenFootballs, a site which frequently is cited for eliminationist rhetoric and veiled racism, and PowerLine, a site linked to with admiration by such luminaries as Michelle Malkin and Hugh Hewitt -- discovered that if you used the same typeface, you could make documents that looked almost -- but not exactly -- like the TANG documents discovered by CBS News.  This qualifies as big news, of course, so from those two sites, the story has spread into the mainstream media through the usual channels, most notably Drudge, NRO, etc.

I do not believe there is any truly "new" information here, but I hope to condense it in one easy-to-digest reference.

So here are some point-by-point findings re: the "forgeries".

First Claim (LittleGreenFootballs): "The documents can be recreated in Microsoft Word".

What the LGFer did to "prove" this was to type a Microsoft Word document in Times New Roman font, and overlay it with the original document.  As he says:


Notice that the date lines up perfectly, all the line breaks are in the same places, all letters line up with the same letters above and below, and the kerning is exactly the same. And I did not change a single thing from Word's defaults; margins, type size, tab stops, etc. are all using the default settings.

We're going to make this simple.

First, of course, in order to do this, he first had to reduce the document so that the margins were the same, since the original PDF distributed by CBS is quite a bit larger.  Then he superimposed the two documents, such that the margins on all sides lined up.

What he then discovered is that Times New Roman typeface is, when viewed on a computer monitor, really, really similar to Times New Roman typeface.  Or rather, really really similar to a typeface that is similar to Times New Roman typeface.

Um, OK then.

You see, a "typeface" doesn't just consist of the shape of the letters.  It also is a set of rules about the size of the letters in different point sizes, the width of those letters, and the spacing between them.  These are all designed in as part of the font, by the designer.  Since Microsoft Word was designed to include popular and very-long-used typefaces, it is hardly a surprise that those typefaces, in Microsoft Word, would look similar to, er, themselves, on a typewriter or other publishing device.  That's the point of typefaces; to have a uniform look across all publishing devices.  To look the same.  You could use the same typeface in, for example, OpenOffice, and if it's the same font, surprise-surprise, it will look the same.

So kudos on discovering fonts, freeper guy.

Next, however: do they really match up?  Well, no.  They don't.

If you shrink each document to be approximately 400-500 pixels across, they do indeed look strikingly similar.  But that is because you are compressing the information they contain to 400-500 pixels across.  At that size, subtle differences in typeface or letter placement simply cannot be detected; the "pixels" are too big.  If you compare the two documents at a larger size, the differences between them are much more striking.

For instance:  In the original CBS document, some letters "float" above or below the baseline.  For example, in the original document, lowercase 'e' is very frequently -- but not always -- above the baseline.  Look at the word "interference", or even "me".  Typewriters do this; computers don't.  Granted, if you are comparing a lowercase 'e' that is only 10 or 12 pixels high with another lowercase 'e' that is only 10 or 12 pixels high, you're not going to see such subtleties.  That doesn't prove the differences aren't there; it just proves you're an idiot, for making them each 12 pixels high and then saying "see, they almost match!"

"This typeface -- Times New Roman -- didn't exist in the early 1970s."

There are several problems with this theory.  First, Times New Roman, as a typeface, was invented in 1931.  Second, typewriters were indeed available with Times New Roman typefaces.

And third, this isn't Times New Roman, at least not the Microsoft version.  It's close.  But it's not a match.

For example, the '8' characters are decidedly different.  The '4's, as viewable on other memos, are completely different; one has an open top, the other is closed.

So yes, we have proven that two typefaces that look similar to each other are indeed, um, similar.  At least when each document is shrunk to 400-500 pixels wide... and you ignore some of the characters.

"Documents back then didn't have superscripted 'th' characters"

That one was easy.  Yes, many typewriter models had shift-combinations to create 'th', 'nd', and 'rd'.  This is most easily proven by looking at known-good documents in the Bush records, which indeed have superscripted 'th' characters interspersed throughout.

"This document uses proportional spacing, which didn't exist in the early 1970s."

Turns out, it did.  The IBM Executive electric typewriter was manufactured in four models, A, B, C, and D, starting in 1947, and featured proportional spacing.  An example of its output is here.  It was an extremely popular model, and was marketed to government agencies.

"OK, fine, but no single machine had proportional spacing, 'th' characters, and a font like that one."

No, again.  The IBM Executive is probably the most likely candidate for this particular memo.  There is some confusion about this, so to clear up:  the IBM Selectric, while very popular, did not have proportional spacing.  The Selectric Composer, introduced in 1966, did, and in fact could easily have produced these memos, but it was a very expensive machine, and not likely to be used for light typing duties.  The proportional-spacing Executive, on the other hand, had been produced in various configurations since the 1940's, and was quite popular.

(Note: However, it is not immediately clear that the Selectrics and Selectric IIs could not in fact emulate "proportional" spacing.  There is skepticism in some circles that these memos really show "proportional" spacing.  Looking at the blowups, it appears pretty obvious to me that there is, but still researching.)

Did they have a font that looked like Times New Roman?  Unclear; they apparently were manufactured in a range of configurations, and with different available typefaces.  Note that these were not "typeball" machines, like the Selectrics; they had a normal row of keys.  But it is worth noting that IBM had what we will call a "close" relationship with Times New Roman:


Courier was originally designed in 1956 by Howard Kettler for the revolutionary "golfball" typing head technology IBM was then developing for its electric typewriters. (The first typewriter to use the technology was the IBM Selectric Typewriter that debuted in 1961.) Adrian Frutiger had nothing to do with the design, though IBM hired him in the late 1960s to design a version of his Univers typeface for the Selectric. In the 1960s and 1970s Courier became a mainstay in offices. Consequently, when Apple introduced its first Macintosh computer in 1984 it anachronistically included Courier among its core fonts. In the early 1990s Microsoft, locked in a font format battle with Adobe, hired Monotype Typography to design a series of core fonts for Windows 3.1, many of which were intended to mirror those in the Apple core font group. Thus, New Courier--lighter and crisper than Courier--was born. (In alphabetized screen menus font names are often rearranged for easier access so now we have Courier New MT in which the MT stands for Monotype Typography.)

Courier's vanquisher was Times New Roman, designed in 1931 by Stanley Morison, Typographical Advisor to the Monotype Corporation, with the assistance of draughtsman Victor Lardent. The Times of London first used it the following year. Linotype and Intertype quickly licensed the design, changing its name for their marketing purposes to Times Roman. Times Roman became an original core font for Apple in the 1980s and Times New Roman MT became one for Windows in the 1990s. (Ironically, at the same time IBM invited Frutiger to adapt Univers for the Selectric Typewriter, they asked Morison to do the same with Times New Roman.)

So, as you can see, both IBM and Microsoft specifically obtained the typeface "Times New Roman" from the designers of that font; neither was the creator of it.  And, as we said before, typeface includes not just the "shape" of the letters, but the size and spacing between those letters.

One of the differences between the Times New Roman as implemented on the IBM machines, as opposed to Microsoft Word?  The IBM machines apparently had the alternative '4' character that matched these memos, while Microsoft Word's TNR does not.

Oops.

Now, would the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron have extravagantly purchased typewriters that contained the th superscript key?  Would the military want or require typewriters with the 'th', 'nd', and 'rd' characters?  Hmm.  Ponder, Ponder.  What would the 111th need with a th character... I'll leave that to the enterprising among you to deduce.

This is not the final word on this, and it is certainly possible that any documents are forgeries.  But the principle argument of the freepers -- that it would be impossible for a TANG office in 1972 to produce documents that look like these -- is simply false.  Within a few days, however, we should know for sure either way; these typewriters still have a following, and type samples should be forthcoming.

Update [2004-9-10 4:26:25 by Hunter]: Also see kj's diary just after this one, for evidence on the IBM Selectric Composer, first marketed in 1966. This machine definitively had all the features necessary to produce these documents. Because it was apparently very expensive and difficult to use, the argument is that a TANG office would never have had one. Unclear. Nonetheless, it strikes down the theory that a 60s-70s era machine could not have produced these docs.

Update [2004-9-10 5:48:19 by Hunter]: Here is an excellent article explaining the recent history of Times New Roman in particular. Note that Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, and other firms redesigned their "Times [New] Roman" typefaces in the 80s-90s specifically to more accurately match the original design of Times New Roman:

When Microsoft produced its version of Times New Roman, licensed from Monotype, in TrueType format, and when Apple produced its version of Times Roman, licensed from Linotype, in TrueType format, the subtle competition took on a new aspect, because both Microsoft and Apple expended a great deal of time and effort to make the TrueType versions as good as, or better than, the PostScript version. During the same period, Adobe released ATM along with upgraded versions of its core set of fonts, for improved rasterization on screen. Also, firms like Imagen, now part of QMS, and Sun developed rival font scaling technologies, and labored to make sure that their renderings of Times, licensed from Linotype in both cases, were equal to those of their competitors. Hence, the perceived quality of the Times design became a litmus for the quality of several font formats. Never before, and probably never again, would the precise placement of pixels in the serifs or 's' curves etc. of Times Roman occupy the attention of so many engineers and computer scientists. It was perhaps the supreme era of the Digital Fontologist.
So as you can see, it has indeed been a primary design goal of Microsoft and other firms to make their Times New Roman font match the original 1930's typeface design as closely as possible.

Update [2004-9-10 6:47:49 by Hunter]: Here is an actual manual for an IBM Selectric Composer, circa 1966, itself created using a Composer.

Update [2004-9-10 14:26:41 by Hunter]: This is from a commenter at Kevin Drum's Washington Monthly site:

Kevin, I worked in the IBM Office Products Division field service area fixing typewriters in NYC for over 13 years in the 70s. I can tell you that the Model D can produce those documents, not only did it do proportional spacing, you could order any font that IBM produced AND order keys that had the aftmentioned superscripted "th." Also you could order the platen, thats the roller that grabs the paper, in a 54 tooth configuration that produced space, space and a half and double spacing on the line indexing, this BTW was popular in legal offices. The Model D had to be ordered from a IBM salesmen and was not something that was a off the shelf item, typical delivery time were 4-6 weeks. Also, typewriter keys were changed in the field all the time, its not that hard to do. I wish I had saved my service and parts replacement manuals to backup this claim but I'm guessing a call to IBM with a request for a copy of their font and parts replacement manuals would put this to rest ASAP. Posted by: BillG NYC on September 10, 2004 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK
FYI, but I have found nothing that contradicts this information. It would appear you could order the humble IBM Executive with a wide variety of typestyles and characters, especially if you were a large, important client.

Update [2004-9-10 22:43:41 by Hunter]: An update to this post can be found here; it contains summaries of the new information, and a little about the media reactions in all of this.

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Permalink | 427 comments

  •  Sigh. Hope that was useful, (3.99 / 215)

    ... because confirming some of these things took a hell of a long time.

    One moral of this story:  If you put a picture of a chimpanzee next to a picture of George W. Bush, line them up exactly, and shrink them down to only a few pixels across, they'll look pretty much the same, at that resolution.  Whether you think that proves anything depends on your point of view.

    If this post has served any useful purpose, recommend it, and we'll start updating it with new information as it comes up.  (We need a clearing-house thread for this crap?)  Otherwise, we can let it die.

    •  Reward Hunter (none / 0)

      Recommend this diary.  Give Hunter mojo.  Reward and encourage this kind of work!

      Prof. McCain:
      By Iraq, is Pakistan near;
      While Czechoslovakia's here.
      Sunnis are Shi'a,
      Sudan is Somalia,
      and Putin's the German premier.

      by Michael D on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:02:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm recommending (4.00 / 3)

        Good job.  We know that CBS is probably double-checking right now to Cover Their Asses, so we'll know the truth soon enough.

        Even if these things are bogus we still have some key undisputable facts to fall back on:

        1. Bush skipped a required physical
        2. Bush skipped five months of duty
        3. Bush failed to sign up with a Boston unit
        4. Bush is still a wimpy chimp
        5. Bush lied in his first run for office by claiming he was in the Air Force
        6. Osama Bin Laden is still on the run
        7. North Korea is building nukes like crazy
        8. Bush has yet to create a single job in his first term
        9. Still no WMDs in Iraq
        10. Mission is not "accomplished"
        11. Health care and Medicare premiums are exploding
        12. Budget deficit is exploding

        Even without these documents, we'll be okay. Unlike the freepers, we don't need lies to win an election.

        Old Man McCain.com - the best McCain attack blog on the web!

        by existenz on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:21:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  KOS, I WILL WAGER YOU: (none / 0)

          More will be written about the forgeries than what is on hte doc itself.  This is exactly the way they planned it-the whole weekend talking about forgeries and dem dirty tricks and the liveral media.  Where is the dems Karl Rove?
          •  I've said this before but.... (none / 0)

            Repubs pay no price for thier lies.  Some other examples of Democratic wimpery:
            Decmocratic Mistakes:

            1.    Lieberman saying that late votes should count.
            2.    Gore not asking for a total recount
            3.    Gore conceding the elections
            4.    Daschle embracing Bush
            5.    Daschle not going to NY as the leader of the Dems to meet bush after 911.  there is a reason people associate Bush and Giuliani as the saviors of 911
            6.    Dems rolling over for the tax cuts
            7.    Dems loosing control of the Homeland Security debate, even though it was them who came up with the idea
            8.    Gephardt making a Rose Garden appearance with Bush supporting the Iraq war.
            9.    Kerry voting against the 87B.
            10.    Kerry not going for the Jugular at the end of July
            11.    Kerry not defending himself in August
            12.    Kerry telling people not to attack Bush at the convention.
            13.    The Dems refusing to point out Bush' repeated Flip-Flops, instead, letting Kerry get stuck with the flip-flopper label.
            14.    Not going nuclear on Bush earlier.
            15.    Not hiring Carville/Begala until things were problematic.
            16.     I could go on, but the main problem is that Dems will not do what is necessary to win; they would rather lose than stoop.
          •  Dems Karl Rove (none / 0)

            I'm praying that her name is Kitty Kelley.
    •  Graphic designer still outraged at 1 am (4.00 / 4)

      Take a look at the "M" in MEMORANDUM. Notice how the center of the cap "M" in the pdf memos does not fall as low as the character's baseline. In New Times Roman is does. This is not New Time Roman.

      It is also not Georgia or Palatino. New York also does not jive as in that the descender in  cap "J" falls below the regular baseline.

      Sorry to be pendantic but these experts are offending everything I know about type.

      Okay I will try to let this die now.

      •  Someone in another diary says (none / 0)

        that the font is "delegate".

        Me, I have no clue.

        "[Republicans] swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose." --Alan Greenspan

        by lanshark on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:59:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  maybe (4.00 / 2)

          The IBM font lists (Delegate or maybe one of the Prestige variations) look more likely. It's hard to tell without the full alphabet sample. These are in the last pages (175 or so) of the IBM manual kj posted on her diary. (I'd link but I have got to get some sleep soooon.)

          I was trying this with the standard PC and MAC fonts, and since they don't match I don't believe the computer type theory.

    •  Air Force tests IBM Selectric Composer in 1969 (4.00 / 7)

      From Air Force Data Systems Design Center:
      690400 (Ed. - Date 4/69?)
      A Service Test was completed for the International Business Machines (IBM) "Selectric" typewriter and Magnetic Tape "Selectric" Composer.

      The same document lists the Air National Guard so I would imagine the Air Force handled procurement for the ANG as well. This at least confirms the Selectric Composer was in use by the Air Force in 1969.

      I also found an anecdotal reference (scroll down to yellow highlight) to Selectrics in use by the Air Force by Neil Franklin, Group Historian, Maxwell AFB, Gunter Annex, Alabama:

      At the time of the AFSCOASO's birth, creating printed matter on paper was called typing. If you were really fortunate, your office had an IBM Selectric and plenty of correction ribbon.

      This Neil Franklin is an Air Force Historian specializing in documents and technology and some intrepid reporter should contact him about the use of Selectrics in the Vietnam Era, presupposing the Selectric Composer could have typed the Bush TANG documents.

      •  Don't concede the 'too expensive' point (none / 1)

        Because it was apparently very expensive and difficult to use, the argument is that a TANG office would never have had one (Selectric Composer). Unclear.

        All it took was that there be one year some time after 1966 when there was some leftover money at the end of the fiscal year.  A primary maxim of any government organization is not to have any money leftover because it makes next year's budget smaller.  In fact, end of fiscal year splurges are a common joke in the military.

        And this was the colonel's secretary, one of the bigwigs in the secretarial staff.  (Remember that back in the 60s and 70s, extremely talented and competant women did not have the career choices of today, so she may well have been both an extremely hard worker and a genius.  It seems she was the kind of person who would switch out the ball to make the superscript 'th').

        So at the end of one of these fiscal years, they had a few thousand dollars to get rid of, and the colonel decided to get his secretary the best typewriter on the market.  Hell, she deserved it!  And this would have the ancillary benefit of letting them produce documents that appeared typeset if necessary (for letters to the generals!)

        •  Air Force used Selectric Composers (none / 0)

          I never said it was too expensive. You excerpt from someone else's post (kj, hunter?). My post immediately above confirms the Air Force was testing Selectric Composers as early as 1969. If they are testing them then they intended to buy them. The first memo is from 1972.

          Cost and complication are irrelevant. If the Air Force bought these typewriters (proven above) then they surely had personnel skilled enough to use them. They were buying million dollar fighter jets during wartime - I'm sure a topline IBM typewriter was within the grasp of the TXANG.

          •  oops (none / 1)

            My header should have been:

            "And don't  concede the too expensive point"

            My comment was meant to further support your points not argue them.

            The quote is from Hunter's diary.

            •  Photo of Selectric Composer (none / 0)

              This is the typewriter that the NYT "expert" says is too big to have been in an office.

              Photo

              Looks like a regular damn typewriter to me...

              •  Texas connection for IBM Selectric Composer (4.00 / 2)

                The IBM Selectric Composer was the first typewriter produced in IBM's Austin, Texas production facility.

                "When IBM announced plans for its new Austin manufacturing plant in the 1960s, city leaders began to see real potential to complement Tracor's high tech presence. IBM's first 30 or so employees, who had to wait to move into the new facility, spent their first couple of months tearing down fences and building work benches and file cabinets. They operated out of a farm house, using a dairy barn for storage.

                "It was in the country. There was nothing there but grass and grass and more grass," Wormley says.

                IBM's first product was the Selectric Composer, a typewriter with memory. That was followed by the Magnetic Tape Selectric Composer and the Magnetic Tape Selectric Typewriter in 1968.

                •  What do you suppose (none / 0)

                  are the odds that the TANG would want typewriters made in Texas?

                  If nothing else than as a political favor to the powers that be?

                  After all political games are played with major weapon systems, why not office equipment?

          •  Selectric composers, no big deal (4.00 / 2)

            In 1976, as a graduate student at a state university, I had the use of an "excess" IBM Selectric typewriter, which was mostly used for making class handouts, and writing term papers (because I preferred typing with the carbon ribbon provided by the department to using the cloth ribbon used on the typewriter at home.)

            The point being that if an underfunded state university in 1976 had excess IBM selectric typewriters to provide junkers/beaters for the use of grad students, it's entirely likely that the Air National Guard in 1972 had them available for a Colenel's secretary.

            Local Stores, local schools, local work

            by Menachem Mavet on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 04:53:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  1973 - Mom's employer had them, a small wholesaler (none / 0)

              In 1973, I would go into work with my Mom when my Grandmother was visiting relatives. My mom was working for a fairly small (one warehouse) tobacco and candy wholesale company in Richmond VA. They only had 8-10 panel trucks delivering cigarettes and candy to retail businesses in Richmond. This company had no need for fancy typesetting. Like I said, they sold candy and cigerettes and still used IBM Selectrics.

              My mom's whole office had IBM Selectrics. I know this because my mom would sit me down at one to keep me busy and out of her hair for the day. I know they couldn't have been all that expensive, because they allowed a bookkeepers kid to sit down at their IBM Seletrics and play all day. They all had the interchangeable ball typing unit that you are all mentioning.

              ...and get rid of these gawd damn voting machines. Blackboxvoting.org

              by nyetsoup4you on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 05:39:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Killian might have exercised another option (none / 0)

              I have no reason to doubt that TANG might have had the typewriter that produced the document, but any analysis should no be limited to TANG typewriters. If I had been in Killian's shoes, I would have been sorely tempted to seek legal council before typeing these memoranda. In fact, I would have been tempted to have my lawyer draft the memos for my initialization. I would be, after all, saying some very damning things about someone from a very powerful family.
          •  well... (none / 0)

            When they say expensive, they are saying that it would be the equivalent of a $15,000 machine in today's dollars.  Its something that would be used in a printshop, not for a personal typewriter.
            •  Bullshit. (none / 0)

              No little kids are allowed to play on $15,000 typewriters. No little tobacco/candy wholesaler that  had to net less than a million a year is going to needlessly fill their office with $15,000 typewriters for every employee for memos and letter writing.

              That's ridiculous.

              ...and get rid of these gawd damn voting machines. Blackboxvoting.org

              by nyetsoup4you on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:51:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Also... (none / 0)

                My mom was a bookkeeper. In 1973, all the books were done by hand. My mom had no typing whatsoever in her job description, and only used a typewriter for inter-office memos.

                Then why did my mom have an IBM Selectric at her desk in 1973 if they were so rare and outrageouly priced?

                ...and get rid of these gawd damn voting machines. Blackboxvoting.org

                by nyetsoup4you on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:56:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  kj's diary :IBM Selectric, poor ol' me had one (4.00 / 4)

                  kj's diary shows that there was a machine that could produce this font. The IBM Selectric Composer.  In addition he found the fount that closely matches it that was used by these machines. it's a relative of Times New Roman called Bembo.  You have to go to his post and it's in a pdf file . I have already checked a lot of it wuth the CYA Aug. 18,1973 document and it does seem to match. Link to Aug. 18 doc
                  http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf

                  Link below with some of his material.

                  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/35559/9134

                  The IBM Selectric Composer, first marketed in 1966, is capable of producing a scalable memo in the particular font we see.  The memos are available here:

                   The manual for that typewriter can be found here:

                   The manual for that typewriter can be found here:  http://ibmcomposer.org/docs/Electronic%20Composer%20Operating%20Instructions.pdf.

                  The font available for that typewriter that is used in the memo is called "Aldine Roman".  See a replication of it here called Bembo (you have to scroll down a bit): http://graphicdesign.sfcc.spokane.cc.wa.us/tutorials/process/type_basics/type_families.htm.  You'll see that it better matches the font in the Killian memos.  Times Roman in Word has too fine of serifs for what is created in the memos.  The fonts are very similar however.  If you go to page 168 (173 of the pdf), you'll see that Aldine Roman is available in three sizes: 8, 10, and 12.  The superscript is made with the 8-point size element font ball.

                  I went to college in the mid to late sixties.  The first year I had a used manual typewriter.  Cost $40. I worked that summer I bought an IBM Selectric.  It cost either a couple hundred dollars but less then three hundred.  I had it for many years.  By 1973 they could easily have been bought new ones for much less or used ones for even less than that.  The military could easily have afforded one.

                  Recommend kj's diary; it's a good supplement to this one.  And it seems to be proof that there was such a typewriter.  The papers should have waited and gotten their facts straight before they jumped the gun.  They sure hop to it for Republicans while it took a couple of weeks for them to get data about the Swift Boat Liars

                  PS I posted a version of this at kj's. forgive me!

                  •  What about other documents? (4.00 / 2)

                    I don't know if someone brought this up already, but:

                    If that's the typewriter he used to type up the Bush documents, chances are there are plenty of other documents produced by him, with the same font, and from the same time period, floating around out there. I mean, I'm sure he typed a lot of things for his job and not just these particular docs in question.

                    Bernie Sanders for president!

                    by SoCalSista on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 12:53:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Childhood selectric (none / 0)

          I don't buy the too expensive line.

          From my earliest childhood (which would be around 1972 or 1973) I remember my family having a Selectric. Not sure what model, but it was pretty swank, and I think it had a lot of these featres.

          We weren't poor and the folks both worked for IBM. But honestly, if this thing was so expensive, there's no chance we would have had one stuck in our basement getting rusty.

          This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

          by emptywheel on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 06:21:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Late comment (4.00 / 2)

            Just reading this diary mid-morning so very late to the converstion.  I went to bed angry at this whole this of being a forgery.

             But to add my useless knowledge, I was a legal secretary from 1964 to 1993.  One of the first machines I used was the IBM selectric with "executive" typface.  It was a KILLER to use.  You really needed to be an excellent typist because to make a correction on those beasts took much skill and experience.

            If I remember, the "i" had 1 point of space, the "e" and most other letters had 3 points of space, and the "m" had 5 points of space.  Heaven forbid you tped an "i" where an "m" should go -- erase the whole word and try again but you would still have to squeeze the word in a smaller space.  

            Any evidence of typos on this memo?  Really really good typists could do that, no typos I mean.  If this memo was typed by a military man, I would expect typos.  If this was typed by his clerk, I would expect none.    

            •  Military used to typing with carbons without error (none / 0)

              You can't make mistake when you are typing up a stack of forms with carbons. You can't fix carbon copies. So you slow down your speed and make sure you do not make mistakes the first time.

              ...and get rid of these gawd damn voting machines. Blackboxvoting.org

              by nyetsoup4you on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:59:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  suggested that Killian was not a typist (none / 0)

              It's been suggested elsewhere that Killian was not a typist, and hated doing it. If that's true, then this was probably typed up by a secretary or clerk.

              The world won't get no better if we just let it be.

              by drewthaler on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 08:33:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  You're missing the point (4.00 / 2)

            Nobody is saying a Selectric was too expensive.  Selectrics were about the most common office typewriter out there.  Lots of families had them too.  Yours was one of them.  It's not a big deal.  A new Selectric cost maybe what, $300 or $400 back then, the equivalent of a midrange office PC today, plus there was a healthy market for used ones, so they were all over the place.

            "Too expensive" refers to a different machine, the Selectric Composer.  The Selectric Composer cost more like $3000, something like the price of a new car back then.  I promise that your family didn't have a Selectric Composer.  It wasn't an office typewriter.  I've used one a few times because the company I worked at had one for doing sales brochures for publication.  It's overclaiming to say that it was too big to put in an office, but it was a lot bigger than a normal Selectric.  It had extremely tight mechanical tolerances and therefore it needed maintenance all the time if you used it a lot.  It needed special typeballs that were bigger than Selectric typeballs.  It may have needed special ribbons.  We used special paper with it for doing the brochures, but that can't have been mandatory.  

            In my opinion, believing that Killian would have used a Selectric Composer for that memo borders on conspiracy theory.  Yeah, it's theoretically possible.  But it would have been completely bizarre.

            I'm just about certain that Kevin Drum's commenter got it right.  If the memos are real, they were done on an IBM Executive that was equipped with the superscript "th" and whatever font those memos are done in.  I had wanted to spend part of today researching whether such machines existed (see my comments in the typewriter threads last night), but Kevin Drum's commenter, for my purposes, has put the matter completely to rest.  The Model D Executive could be ordered that way, and in my mind it's just about certain that the earlier Model C which would have been more common at the time could also be ordered that way (there was nothing exotic about those features).  

            So, if you ask me, the "specially-ordered IBM Executive" theory is about 100 times as plausible as the "Selectric Composer" theory.

            Hawkish on impeachment.

            by clyde on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 12:32:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Leaving out the Selectric Composer, (none / 0)

              the "regular" Selectric was, compared with all other typewriters on the market, were the cadillac of typewriters.

              And in 1972-73 when I had opportunity to use one, they were, new, as said, about $3-400, used $150.  I recall as I wanted one.

              (I shortly settled on an electric Smith-Corona -- with  new thingy called a "cartridge") which cost about $150 new.  [It's been in the closet, unused, since 1987, when I got my first computer -- for word processing, the idea being to save paper and ribbons ("You wouldn't know it to look at me now" -- Firesign Theatre) -- a Commodore 64.

              (But, yes, the non-Composer Selectric was sweet, and lusted after by anyone worth their secretarial abilities or writer's dreams.

              (Gad, I still have a number of letters and draft poems typed on the thing from early 1973 . . .)

              A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

              by jnagarya2 on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:19:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Selectric to die for (none / 0)

                was the Correcting Selectric II with the correctable film ribbon and built-in lift-off tape.   You could erase all your typos by just pressing a button, and they'd vanish as if you'd never made them.  No more of that white overstrike crap or correction fluid all over your paper.  Oh man.  It was heaven.

                Hawkish on impeachment.

                by clyde on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 08:04:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  "And this was the colonel's secretary" (none / 1)

          I don't suppose the colonel's secretary is still around and could confirm the memos.  Anyone in a position to check?
      •  Wouldn't there be an inventory, somewhere? (none / 1)

        Wouldn't there be an inventory, somewhere, that would list the office equipment owned and operated by the Guard Unit where these reports were composed?  The typewriter was government property, and one would assume that the government kept an inventory of its property, no?
    •  9/10 7:20AM (none / 0)

      FWIW

      Don Imus has been reporting all morning that the wife of this colnel, and several officer's that worked for/with him are denying he wrote the memo. Imus is an RNC media hack so I guess people should take it with a grain of salt.

      •  again (4.00 / 5)

        how could the wife or son possibly no what memos the father dictated in his job?

        this is a colonel for chrissakes, not Leave It To Beaver.  

        I seriously doubt the wife or son have any idea of any memo that the colonel, in a culture notorious for memos to cover ass (and other reasons), may have drafted with his secretary.

        they may not know that the colonel was banging his secretary either.

        free the information

        by freelixir on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 04:29:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with you. (none / 1)

          What amazes me is how easily these people smash everything that might hurt shrub, even memos that are almost assuredly true. Hence our guy, a true war hero, gets creamed, while chicken-shit coward gets a pass. We definitely need a quick response team.
          •  It's not just nice (none / 0)

            It's not that Democrats are to nice to play mean. But it's hard to play as dirty as we'd have to. You can't keep thinking of yourself as a good person after lies and intellectual dishonesty unless you are a psychopath or other pathological case.
        •  Thank You -- and Heaven /Forbid/ . . . (none / 1)


            First, thanks for that comment, I've been waiting to see such -- even if way down in some comment thread in some blog . . .

            Second, I write letters and memos all the time in my work.  I'm trying to think of any reasonable circumstance where my wife, or hypothetical child (we've no children yet), would be able to say in 20 or 30 years whether I did or did not write something work-related.  I say "reasonable" circumstance:  sure, if a letter of memo attributed to me surfaced 10 years after my demise evidencing that I lead a secret, double-life as a CIA operative posing as a Sicilian fishmonger who'd recently returned from a "wet-job" in East Buddha, Equador, then, O.K., I can see my wife doubting the authenticity of such a document (but you never know . . . ), but, c'mon, a 1-page memo about some clown-of-a-subordinate who's skipping work, um, I don't think my wife would have too much insight into the authenticity of such a document.

          Third, heaven forbid a host of Democratic surrogates flood the cable channels to SLAM this stupid thing with words substantively akin to yours /and TURN THIS AROUND on Bush to show, once again, how this cowardly fraud is able to almost magically conjure up a bunch of thugs, half-wits and other sorts of "protectors" to try 'n' pull his wussy self out of the fire.  Heaven forbid!

          "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

          by BenGoshi on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 09:18:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You da man n/t (none / 0)

      "We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

      by CaptUnderpants on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 04:56:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Great job Hunter! But... (none / 0)

      Unfortunately, the Republikkans have already fully succeeded in their goal.

      By getting this 'forgery' BS retort into the media, people have begun to either dismiss the charges or withdrawn interest. They knew that by the time their empty charges were proved hollow, most people would have lost interest.

      Plus, the Republikkans favorite lapdogs - the media - enjoy spouting out Jerry Springer-esque charges full of 'gotcha!' sensationalism rather than actually research & determine fact from fiction.

      It's not like its their job to investigate the journalism they produce. It's our job now. Welcome to the new ownership society.

      Hunter, you did an utterly amazing job in researching this, and I appreciate your efforts greatly. Thank you!

      "I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."

      by zeitshabba on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 08:04:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is a difference here (4.00 / 4)

        This controversy seriously jeapordizes the credibility of CBS, which has one of the biggest bullhorns at the circus.

        Both the Associated Press and the Washington Post have published stories now with experts making demonstrably false statements.

        When CBS lays this to rest, they are going to do so in a prominent way, and they are going to demand that AP and the Washington Post prominently correct.

        AP and Washington Post have attacked CBS' reputation very strongly, and it is obvious that they did not conduct proper research.  CBS will surely demand that they eat what they have shat in the punchbowl of their profession.

        •  Has anyone (none / 0)

          made the info in this diary available to CBS? They may have parts of the argument, but this is clear, concise, and convincing, AND comprehensive.

          Just a suggestion, mind you...

          "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -Albus Dumbledore ~~~~~~~~~ http://slugcrossings.blogspot.com/

          by Lainie on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 09:38:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I urgently make the same suggestion -- (none / 0)

            recommendation.

            As CBS is currently standing alone and conspicuous with this, it would likely apprecite the information.  "Help".  Might even create a convenient openning for someone here with the skills to accomplish that.

            And, defeinately, it should be submitted to Washington Post, NY Times, and any other malingering media organization who prefers "Gotcha!" to journalism.

            CBS has it right.  So whoever can accomplish, give them the help and support they deserve in this instance.

            I'm sure a few there will appreciate that, and the good faith of it.

            Also get copy to the DNC, or whatever element of that Politce society Club likely to make most aggressive use of it.

            A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

            by jnagarya2 on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:29:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  My only complaint (none / 1)

      Typography in general is a fascinating subject, but typewriters in particular are VERY cool machines.  

      IMHO typewriters sit alongside steam locomotives, Linotype machines, and variable pitch propellers as things which no normal human being would ever think could work, but which some set of people continued beating on until they WERE made to work.  A true testament to human ingenuity.

      sPh

    •  not one of their accusations, but... (none / 0)

      please explain this one to me, if you can. Just looking at the May 4th and August 18th memos, you'll notice a row of dots going down, maybe a third of the way across the page. You can also line these dots up without too much trouble.

      Now I'm no expert, but usually what this means is that there's a spot on the drum of your printer, and each time it goes around, it leaks a bit there. Or something.

      I count about 5 distinct sets of these, so I'd estimate that it makes a complete cycle every 2 inches or so? Haven't tried printing it out yet.

      Anyhow, unless office equipment did this in 1973, it screams "printer" to me, which can't be good. At least for those two documents.

      •  Is it the original? (4.00 / 2)

        Obviously, when CBS got the document, they made copies of it.  I'm sure you aren't looking at the original.  The one you are looking at may be a copy of a copy of a fax.
        •  good point, but... (none / 0)

          Faxing might explain it, I guess, but the artifacts I'm referring to only appear on two of the documents. So if it were due to faxing, then they weren't all faxed. I've never seen a copy machine leave marks like this, but maybe a cheap all-in-one sort of thing might.

          I guess we'd need to see scans of the originals to make sure, which is what I'd hope those PDFs would be. For that matter, I'd think you'd want the originals (if possible) for the document experts to verify it.

      •  Dots on paper coming out of typewriter (none / 1)

        Ummm ... yeah, you can definitely get a spot rolling out of a typewriter.  Three possibilities.

        1.  Those dots are very close-spaced, and so most likely came from a small roller which holds the paper against the main platten.  This is definitely something you can see in a type-written document, as those rollers tend to get slightly misshapen with time and "deposit" their residue at similar locations of the paper each time you put a new sheet in.  As to what the residue might be:  possibilities range from carbon-paper debris to oil to jelly doughnut :)

        2.  I'm not sure of the specific 1973 IBM typewriter platten designs, but some fancier typewriters use a dual-platten system instead of a single platten and smaller rollers on the "front" side of the paper.  The rear platten would generally be smaller than the front platten, but still you'd get those widely-spaced front-of-paper splotches if the rear platten was dirty.  We had such a typewriter a-way back when.  The sucker never jammed like the platten+roller models would tend to do every once in a while (because it held the paper dead flat with no chance of bunching up or binding), but you have to make sure both plattens were kept clean (and one platten with ink on it would definitely dirty the other one when you ripped the paper out).  The specific row of closely-spaced dots wouldn't match this scenario, though, as this would cause a dot to appear about 4-5 times per page, not 4-5 times per line of text.

        3.  If a spot of ink gets on the main "backside" platten of a typewriter it will sometimes "soak through" to the front.  The primary characteristic of such spotting, however, is one large and dark splotch, followed by significantly smaller blotches at regular intervals.  This again doesn't match what is shown on the Aug 18 document.

        As previously commented, the more likely explanation here is that you are not looking at the original document scanned in, but a copy of the original (most likely a faxed copy of the original) scanned in, just as CBS has said.  The most likely source of front-of-paper print blotches is in the fax machine or photocopier used to print out the document.
    •  In my early teen years I studied/learned (none / 0)

      hand lettering ("Speedball"/India ink), and through high school studied typefaces and fonts and the like.  (I've forgotten more than I ever learned on the subject!)  And by the last two years of high school and some years thereafter was designing my own.

      So your presentation is lovely, "pretty"!  The love and respect for detail (and skills at research, and drawing up the results) is obvious.

      As for keeping it?  I think it should be updated when/as necessary -- shouldn't take long over a few days/weeks, until the nonsense blows over -- and brought to fruition, and kept for future "demolition work".

      Might even forward such to CBS, and other media outlets. And media mavens who sit on their asses playing with their microphones and daydreaming instead of doing fact checking.

      Appreciated, and thank you! for the aesthetics!

      A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

      by jnagarya2 on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 06:53:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hunter (none / 0)

    Did you try the Delegate font?

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 12:58:04 AM PDT

    •  Not yet. (none / 0)

      I also have not been able to track down a manual or picture of an Executive that clearly proves the "th" capability.  From several sources, I have been told that they exist -- and that different Executive models were produced with different typefaces and "special" keys -- but the only way to really put this to rest is to find the exact specific sub-model used with this face and characters.  Knowing the font name isn't enough, we need a physical example.

      Indications are that there may be numerous variations of the Executive, but we need more info on what numerous means.  Ten?  Fifty?  Custom models for large customers?

      Also note that this doesn't necessarily have to be the most modern and top-of-the-line "D" model.  It could have been a C, which at that point had been around for a number of years.

      •  Probably tons (none / 0)

        Somewhere I saw that its been around since 1947.

        "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

        by jfern on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:11:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Superscripted "th"s (none / 0)

        The Democratic Underground forums have a couple of images of Bush's military record (produced by the USAF/ANG via the WH) that show the 'th's superscripted in some of the entries.  The doc I saw was one of those where new entries are periodically typed on the record as events occur, and there were some superscripted 'th's on a face that looked like Times Roman.

        It is clear that at least some of the typewriters in Bush's unit had the ability to do the superscripted 'th's.

        The Democratic Party: We the People (7801)

        by JimPortlandOR on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 09:11:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here's a link to a document with the 'th' (none / 0)

          from this thread, this is the document I mentioned.  

          Note the second entry, from 111th at Ellington - the same base where Bush was stationed.  

          Clearly this base had the capability of doing superscripted th in routine documents.  A colonel would be even more likely to have a secretary (civil service) with this kind of typewriter.

          kos

          The Democratic Party: We the People (7801)

          by JimPortlandOR on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 09:24:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Another "th" possibility... (none / 0)

        Poking around google, I came across a couple of references to creating special characters by snapping a removable key over a regular key.

        These are just anecdotal, but perhaps someone else here has heard of this or used it before?

        It would make finding a specific typewriter that could have typed the memos easier... less "specific".

        This link calls them "typits" and refers specifically to the IBM Executive.

        It's 1975 and six months since I completed my previously postponed English degree. Not having received that Fortune 500 junior executive offer I was waiting for, I get real and take a job as a technical secretary in an environmental consulting company. I type proposals and reports on my old idiosyncratic friend, the IBM Executive. But how in the heck am I going to type all those Greek letters and funny math symbols?

        I am presented with a briefcase-sized wooden box filled with rows and rows of "Typits". Each one of these 3-inch-long plastic sticks has a metal-type letter or symbol stuck to one end. I find the right character, jam the Typit onto a bracket on the typewriter, and then ram the Typit with any other key to make the Typit strike the paper. Voilà, I have a µ <<Greek mu>, <<Greek capital sigma>, <<integral sign>, or whatever. Now I am typing about one word every 50 minutes! Tedious, tedious.

        And here's another reference:

        Also, as part of a job that I held for several years in the early 60s, I typed technical documents that frequently contained page long equations.  We had standard electric typewriters, but the outside key on the right and left could be removed and replaced.  Each typist had a big board containing our extra keys so that when I had to insert an [sigma], for instance, into the equation, I would remove one of the end keys, attach the [sigma] key, strike it, remove it, reinsert the standard key, and continue with my work.

        Does a cat have Buddha nature? Mew.

        by glow dog on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 04:19:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Removable Keys (none / 1)

          I'm not sure about IBMs from personal experience, but I had a typewriter with two removable key faces (and corresponding removable key caps on the keyboard) when I was a kid. If whatever our brand of typewriter was had it, you can bet that IBM made at least one model of typewriter which had that feature.


          "I play a street-wise pimp" — Al Gore

          by Ray Radlein on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 04:46:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Smith-Corona I noted buying (none / 0)

            had a pair of keys/"characters" that could be changed.  I replaced whatever the originals (don't recall -- I have them somewhere) with a pair of square brackets -- "[]".  Cost was $5.00.

            Funky and primitive compared to the potentials of the IBMs.

            A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

            by jnagarya2 on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:39:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I did the same thing (none / 1)

    Check out my diary immediately following yours.  I spent my time linking the IBM Composer to the memos.  I even found the font.  Take a look.  

    Great Job by the way.  I recommended yours.  Feel free to add any of my research to yours.  I agree that we need a single place to counter the evidence.

    •  Which is it? (none / 0)

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:05:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Composer (4.00 / 2)

        ... was apparently a much more difficult to use machine, and much more expensive.  But they had been around since 1966, so it is possible that this was the machine used.

        I am betting personally on the Executive, since it seems to be the most popular typewriter that would have these features.  But the Composer is an absolute lock: it did have all these features.  And it used the typeballs of the other Selectrics, so there were a wide variety of available fonts for it, including Times New Roman.

        Also could be another machine, but doubtful; the IBM Executive was "the machine" with proportional spacing.  Don't know of any others with similar sales.  Not saying there weren't, just that they're not coming up so far.

        •  It's Not "Impossible" because... (4.00 / 3)

          ...because TANG used the same style typewriter, making the superscript "th" on Records that Bush himself released earlier in the year - probably during the Feb Document drop.

          Either that or the Docs bush released also have an "Authenticity problem."

          You can't have it both ways - The freepers/right/SCLM can't claim the "Killian" docs are frauds, yet the "WH" docs are legit when they each suffer from the same "Flaw."

          http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/9/10/21036/4232/20#20

          McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

          by Al Rodgers on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 02:01:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is a key point. (none / 1)

            The superscript "th" bugged me. If previous "good" documents from the same TANG office, indeed, have the identical superscript "th" in them, ipso facto deado wingnuttoes.

            (Missouri 2nd Congressional District)

            The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

            by fugitive on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 06:52:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  typeballs (none / 1)

          FWIW, my father used a Selectric back in the 70s, and, as a linguist, had multiple typeballs with every letter variation, superscript, subscript, schwas, umlauts, glottal fricatives, you name it.  I can't imagine that a typeball with something as widely-used as a superscript "th" wasn't readily available.
    •  Thanks, (none / 0)

      ... I added an update to link to yours.  Great stuff.
  •  I have to admit... (4.00 / 7)

    ...I'm already bored with the forgery question. But all this font stuff is pretty interesting.  :)
    •  To me it's an interesting mystery (3.50 / 2)

      like Sherlock Holmes.  The Freepers have their experts, we have ours, everyone gets to study the evidence themselves.  I typed up the CYA memo on Word using Times New Roman.  Many similarities in spacing to the memo, but the font is slightly different.  Also, when you zoom into the memo you see that the letters are slightly uneven and smudged, similar to what you'd see on a typewriter as opposed to a printer.

      CBS is the only one with high quality copies of the memos, not PDFs, so hopefully they'll provide some answers soon.  Somebody should drive down to IBM and check out their old typewriters if they still have working copies around.

      The raised, half-sized "th" is the one thing that seems most suspicious to me.  But I've heard people say some typewriters did include that special key.  I guess we'll find out.

      It seems strange that someone would make such master forgeries that could fool CBS and Killian's co-workers and yet would be so dumb as to print them out on Microsoft Word.  Even I would know to buy an old 1960s typewriter for this.

      Old Man McCain.com - the best McCain attack blog on the web!

      by existenz on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:27:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Logic? Reasoning? Deduction? Syllogism? Brain 101? (none / 0)

        Exactly right!

        Even if you could reproduce an original vintage 1970s typewritten document (and as we have seen there are several discrepancies) with MS Word or another word processor, it does not follow then that any document which looks like that could only have been produced in such a way.

        Are people stupid or what?

        Waaaaaah!

      •  Raised, half-sized th (4.00 / 2)

        The "th" is actually a key indicator that it's not Word. Look at the way it's printed. The bar of the 7 touches the middle of the "th" on the typewritten one, while the bar is just about at the top of the "th" on the Word-created one.

        Just try to get Word to draw a 'th' that far outside the ascent of the font without going way out of your way ... you won't be able to do it, because modern font-rendering systems are much more strict about that stuff.

        Also, it's hard to tell definitively at such crappy resolution, but it sure looks like the typewritten "th" is thicker - which is of course a characteristic of a typewriter font where the glyphs are formed by metal striking paper. A minimum thickness is required so that it doesn't break. Screen rendering / laser-printing, of course, can create arbitrarily thin glyphs.

        It's worth noting the obvious, btw, and pointing out that the smaller "th" is something you'd have to type manually on the typewriter. Even on documents typed with the exact same typewriter, whether it appears on any given document is really up to the typist. I'd say that the superscript 'th' is the handiwork of someone who wasn't churning out reams of paper every day, and had the type of personality that pays attention to detail -- which might happen to fit a Lieutenant Colonel.

        The world won't get no better if we just let it be.

        by drewthaler on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 02:35:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I tried too. (none / 0)

          you are absolutely right. God resides in details. This case in the "th". Can't be MSWORD.
        •  good point, and to add to it (none / 0)

          The raised "th" is only in the last memo -- all of the ones before have it typed in a regular font. everyone's making really great points. the only frustrating thing is WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO CARE?!?!

          reduce polarization -- hug a republican

          by golightly21 on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:37:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i don't think these are forgeries, but (none / 1)

            unfortunately, when i print out my msword version of the "cya" memo, the superscripted "th" does in fact rise well above the top level of the number it follows.  i'm sorry to say this, but that's what happens.  however, the superscripted "th" looks noticably different, even though it rises to approimately the same level, and, moreover, in the cya memo, the 7 in 187th dips below the lower level of all the other type, whereas it does not do this in my word version.  

            the thing that stands out to me the most is that the memos released by the white house contained two more documents than those provided by cbs, and one of the documents that the white house released that was also released by cbs is noticeably different.  the white house version does not black out the address where bush resided at the time, and it contains significantly less spots and junk, aka noise.  at least one other blogger has suggested the memo in question, the may 4th memo, probably all of them in fact, were sent to the white house prior to their release by cbs, and cbs subsequently crossed out the address, which the white house did not do, thus explaining why the white house version is visibly different.  bush and co had the memos for at least a day prior to their release.  some have raised the suggestion that the memos are modern reproductions of legitimate and credible memos which were either hand written, illegible, or contained other information that cbs or its source were not willing to release.  

            i say: find the secretary.  or, perhaps she is one of the credible sources dan rather says they used to vet these documentsm but of course dan hasn't named who their source is yet.  though i disagree with michael dobbs' reporting in the WaPo, mainly because i think they may have jumped the gun a bit, i do agree with what he said on cnn today: cbs should release the names of their sources and their experts.  that's the only way we can resolve all this speculation, and unless we do that, we risk this foolish nonsensical debate over 30 year old typewriters obscuring the message john kerry needs to be hammering home loudly and clearly.

            •  Not a Secretary, but an Airman (none / 1)

              In this sort of unit, typing for the commanding officer would have been done by an airman or non-commissioned officer (sergeant) with clerical duties.  In 1972-3, this would almost certainly have been a man rather than a woman.

              The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

              by lysias on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:04:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Test the paper... (4.00 / 3)

        which is a sure sign as to its age.  If it was made or purchased within a certain length of time, then it could pinpoint when the memos were typed.

        I'm duping this from another comment I made on the overnight thread.

        "I was a secretary typing on an IBM Selectric Correcting II, what I believe to have been the best typewriter EVER before computers in the late Seventiess.

        "I remember what I called the little font balls, especially the Letter Gothic and the Symbol, because they were the ones we used in the electrical engineering department at Stanford in the late 1970s.  (By that time, few Selectric I's were around, big heavy clumsy lumbering things they were.) They were in 12- and 10-points, however, I am not sure whether lesser points could be had.  I think, however, that a Helvetica th looked different than a Times Roman th.  Sometimes, of course, the font points were nothing compared to the font size.

        "I know that whenever I was forced to do the "th," I simply rolled the paper up an eighth, did my thing, and rolled it back down."

        Okay. Now here is something I just remmembered.  Maybe someone else has said this, but if not:

        Plus with the Selectric Correcting II, there was a lever where you could pull a trick: squeeze type into a space if you had forgotten a tiny word or symbol.  Those memos look to me like someone who was squeezing something extra onto the paper.  That's someone who would know a thing or two about these kinds tricks secretaries did.

        I think someone typed them up alright, off of Killian's notes on NG type stationary.  Someone probably independent of TANG.  And Killian signed them.

        Okay, moving right along:

        "I'm with Kurtz when he restates for the record that when CBS asked a superior of Killian's about the authenticity of the memos, the superior replied that he and Killian had talked about the exact same issues in the memo before.  In other words, Killian may have left a paper trail to protect himself in case a whistle was blown.  

        "However, I have a problem with how and where CBS found Killian's personal papers. An independent researcher has pieced together the events leading up to Bush's leaving the NG; that's the real paper trail, imho.  (Some guy whose name escapes me, but it begins or ends with the letter K.)

        "I disagree with Killian's widow when she states that her husband never wrote anything down and kept it in his head.  Ya know, hon?  The right hand doesn't always know what the left hand is doing.  I also dispute her claim that Bush was some kind of wonderful pilot and Guardsman. Like Mintz said regarding Bush, he didn't see him.  I doubt whether she saw Bush, too.  Even at parties.

        "I also disagree with Killian's son.  There is something funky here.  Who is he protecting, his father or Bush?  He supposedly served in the same unit with his father and Bush.  Again, he may not have been watching his father's left hand."

        My two cents.

        An untypical Negro...since 1954.

        by blksista on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 10:41:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Hooray for the fonts! (none / 0)

      by Caleb Gilbert
      Hooray for the fonts! Hooray for the fonts! Horray for the fonts!

      Let's keep talking about this thing for as long as we can and wherever we can do it. I mean what a fun thing - sit there and watch people, who apparently, just can't get over ever admitting that they're irrefutably wrong for once ("irrefutable - what the hell's that - you some kinda commie or something, boy"). But really don't let me ruin the fun here - what's important for your funny bone is to let these motor mouths bury themselves with explanations that would make Oliver Stone bashful (explanations that the White House itself hasn't even alleged, mind you).

      Finally, when all looks lost, and the beat-red maniacs seem out of breath - just tweak and ridicule them a little bit for more fun and games. It doesn't have to be much, just throw 'em a bone - some "red meat" if you wil. Tell them this proves once and for all that the war in Iraq is not linked with the War on Terror, and then just step back so that the wild-monkey-flailings and spittle will not hit you directly...

      ...and in the meantime have a glance over at how those undecides are reacting to Mr. or Mrs. Angry-Puss.
  •  Here's another point (none / 0)

    This document released from the WH has a similar look.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/Bush_Military_01.pdf

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

    by jfern on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:10:31 AM PDT

  •  RE (4.00 / 7)

    What I find more than a little bit frightening  is how quickly this nonsense story went from LGF to Washington Post and NYTimes, who would appear to be the ones who got punk'd out.

    What liberal media?

    ... now watch this drive.

    by jg on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:15:52 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, funny ain't it? (none / 0)

      The Swift Liars get three weeks to spew their garbage before the major papers start to debunk them, and even then they give them "he said, she said" treatment.  But something comes along to destroy Bush's credibility and within 24 HOURS they are already trying to strongly debunk it.

      I have no problem with quickly debunking lies, if that's what these turn out to be.  But do it quickly for both sides for godssakes.

      Old Man McCain.com - the best McCain attack blog on the web!

      by existenz on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 01:31:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely. (none / 0)

        In fact, the bigger story here is: Rove wins again.  Because all he needed to do was generate some (probably phony) controversy about the "legitimacy" of the documents, and thus throw up some smoke, to defuse the issue.  And with this "debunking" line of stories, he has achieved his goal.  You know, I can understand Fox, the Washington Times, and right-wing blogs advancing this garbage, but I have to say: I was surprised and pretty disappointed to pick up today's Washington Post and see the "debunking" story on their FRONT PAGE.  Does Rove have the numbers of every editor of every major media outlet in his speed dial?  And -- more to the point -- do those folks take his calls?

        "It is possible to fool all the people all the time -- when the government and press cooperate." -- George Seldes

        by Doofus on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:01:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rove has "achieved his goal"? (none / 0)

          If he did, perhaps too quickly, eh?

          Temporarily.  The story is still new: nice to get the lies refuted early, then get to the facts underlying.

          And, having no evidence that Rove is behind the smoke, I will not concede that speculation as being a "fact".

          The White House has not challenged the facts, even if they are holding their breath in hopes the fortuitous "controversey" lasts long enough to outrun attention and interest.

          A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

          by jnagarya2 on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 07:55:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Kerning (4.00 / 2)

    Please also note that the allegation of kerning is bogus.  A good counterexample is the May 4 memo.  Notice the acronym "IAW".  Kerning would overlap the A and the W so that the parallel slants were closer together.  But no.  In places, some serifs show smearing, but definitely no kerning.
    •  Good point (none / 0)

      ...because if the alleged forgeries were kerned, that would be good evidence of forgery. I can buy PS in a 60's vintage typewriter, but not kerning.

      "Did I say 500 tons of sarin and 25,000 liters of anthrax? I meant 'weapons of mass destruction-related program activities.'" (-5.25, -5.64)

      by Mathwiz on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 12:29:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  More on kerning (3.50 / 2)

      Atrios has posted that LGF's "forgery" doesn't even have kerning turned on! So if it really does closely match CBS's document, it would show that CBS's document isn't kerned either, which would mean it could have been typed.

      Another nail in the coffin of the "forgery" claim.

      "Did I say 500 tons of sarin and 25,000 liters of anthrax? I meant 'weapons of mass destruction-related program activities.'" (-5.25, -5.64)

      by Mathwiz on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 02:22:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  CBS should have determined this (none / 0)

    CBS should have insisted that, for its experts to verify the documents as being from the early '70s, they knew exactly which brand and model of typewriter produced them. Maybe CBS did insist on this, and if so, now is the time to say so and state the brand and model of typewriter, in order to uphold the credibility of CBS. Doesn't this seem logical?
    •  They certainly... (none / 0)

      ... need to come forward with the originals, if the originals are in their possession.  And if all they have is copies, then they need to explain damn clearly why they think the copies are from a legitimate source, and/or explain more clearly their own experts' analysis.

      I will say, also, that I am disappointed that several "experts" seem to be coming forward to say that Times New Roman-like fonts weren't available then, or proportional spacing, or superscripts, etc.   (See TPM)  This is clearly disprovable, and these two "experts" shouldn't be saying it.

      I suspect that within a day or two, a "real" expert -- by which I mean someone too professional to give his opinion over faxed copies and a telephone call -- will give us a definitive answer.

      •  Google the names of the "experts".... (none / 0)

        ...and see what you get. I did that earlier for one (his name slips my mind now) and found out that he was virtually invisible on the Web -- except as an expert witness for some typed document used by a nutty UFO conspiracy freak.

        What I'm curious about is how they chose the "experts" that they went to. Did someone in the RePukes give them a list of "reliable" people?

        •  Bingo! (4.00 / 5)

          The fellow I was speaking of above is Philip Bouffard. He's the (rather obscure looking) expert who shows up on the Web only in a UFO case and as the writer of a program to compare font faces (not a very well known one, either).

          For the main "expert" the Washington Post relied on, I am content to reproduce the comment of an anonymous poster at Steve Gillard's blog:

          WaPo quotes forensic expert William Flynn

          THIS William Flynn?
          The guy who claimed John Demjanjuk was a victim of Soviet forgery?
          http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/williamflynn.htm

          more on John Demjanjuk
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk

          That's quite a roster of "experts." One works for UFO nuts, and one for Nazi war criminals. Why am I not surprised?

          If Media Whores Online was still running, I think I can guess who would get Whore of the Week honors this week!

          •  try again (none / 0)

            Maybe the problem is that Bouffard is generally called "doctor" instead of his first name.  Search Bouffard and typewriter and the very verst link you get is a link to download his fontstyle classification database.  This guy sure seems to be legit.
          •  try again (none / 0)

            Maybe the problem is that Bouffard is generally called "doctor" instead of his first name.  Search Bouffard and typewriter and the very first link you get is a link to download his fontstyle classification database.  This guy sure seems to be legit.
            •  An alien hunter is your big expert, huh? (none / 0)

              "Dr." Bouffard's only research on the net prior to this week was in the Billy Meier alien abduction case

              link...
              http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:2MzHlcYqXHoJ:www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1420.htm+Dr+Philip+ Bouffard+%22Dr.+Philip+Bouffard%22&hl=en

              I submit that the only field "Dr." Bouffard could be considered an expert in (through life experience) is psychopharmaceuticals.

              "Dr." Bouffard is one of the people who really wears  tin foil hats.

              ...and get rid of these gawd damn voting machines. Blackboxvoting.org

              by nyetsoup4you on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 08:40:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Check my post on another thread here -- (none / 0)

                or Corrente.

                One of the "experts" is a Ms. Lines, of AZ.  And a Republican.

                And the "expert" I heard interviewed on NPR was from --- AZ.

                So the "experts" are what?  A Republican, a probable Republican associate, a UFO looney, and a Nazi defender.  (Which one was it that wrote the "font identifier" database?  Does it include swastikas?)

                A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

                by jnagarya2 on Fri Sep 10, 2004 at 08:04:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  im amazed (