Daily Kos

Melting the Skin Off of Children [GRAPHIC]

Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 05:03:24 PM PDT

(From the diaries -- kos)

In a documentary to be broadcast by RAI, the Italian state broadcaster, this morning, a former American soldier who fought at Fallujah says: "I heard the order to pay attention because they were going to use white phosphorus on Fallujah. In military jargon it's known as Willy Pete.

"Phosphorus burns bodies, in fact it melts the flesh all the way down to the bone ... I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 metres is done for."

    -- The Independent, US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah

"WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."

    -- Field Artillery Magazine, via Steven D

I think we need to take a step back from the newest Fallujah revelations. There's been a lot of confusion over what is or isn't a "chemical weapon" vs. an "incendiary"; what aspects of the Geneva conventions the United States is or is not signatory to; and whether or not the United States is still bound by rules of warfare that they are not direct signatories to.

Allow me to try to clear things up, if I can.

First, I think it should be a stated goal of United States policy to not melt the skin off of children.

As a natural corollary to this goal, I think the United States should avoid dropping munitions on civilian neighborhoods which, as a side effect, melt the skin off of children. You can call them "chemical weapons" if you must, or far more preferably by the more proper name of "incendiaries". The munitions may or may not precisely melt the skin off of children by setting them on fire; they do melt the skin off of children, however, through robust oxidation of said skin on said children, which is indeed colloquially known as "burning". But let's try to avoid, for now, the debate over the scientific phenomenon of exactly how the skin is melted, burned, or caramelized off of the aforementioned children. I feel quite confident that others have put more thought into the matter of how to melt the skin off of children than I have, and will trust their judgment on the matter.

Now, I know that we may be melting the skin off of children in order to give them freedom, or to prevent Saddam Hussein from possibly melting the skins off of those children at some future date. These are good and noble things to bring children, especially the ones who have not been killed by melting their skin.

I know, as well, that we do not drop "chemical weapons" on Iraq. We may, in the course of fighting insurgents in civilian neighborhoods, drop "incendiaries" or other airborne weaponry which may melt the skins off of children as an accidental side effect of illuminating their neighborhoods or melting the skins off their neighbors. In that this still can be classified as melting the skins off of children, I feel comfortable in stating that the United States should not condone the practice. (This may mean, when fighting in civilian neighborhoods, we take nuanced steps to avoid melting the skin off of children, such as not dropping munitions that melt the skin off of children.)

And I know it is true, there is some confusion over whether the United States was a signatory to the Do Not Melt The Skin Off Of Children part of the Geneva conventions, and whether or not that means we are permitted to melt the skin off of children, or merely are silent on the whole issue of melting the skin off of children.

But all that aside, there are very good reasons, even in a time of war, not to melt the skin off of children.

  • First, because the insurgency will inevitably be hardened by tales of American forces melting the skin off of children.

  • Second, because the civilian population will harbor considerable resentment towards Americans for melting the skin off of their children.

  • Third, BECAUSE IT FUCKING MELTS THE SKIN OFF OF CHILDREN.

And, unless Saddam Hussein had a brigade or two consisting of six year olds, we can presume that children, like perhaps nine tenths or more of their immediate families, are civilians.

These are, admittedly, nuanced points. "But Hunter", I can hear many Americans say, "isn't it a natural byproduct of a war of preemption, er, I mean liberation, to melt the skin off of children?"

Why yes, yes it is. Melting the skin off of children is an inevitable part of urban warfare, which is one of the reasons that most military planners and foreign policy leaders prefer to avoid putting themselves in positions where melting the skin off of children comes into play. George Herbert Walker Bush, when contemplating whether or not to engage in the urban warfare that would, in all likelihood, melt the skin off of children by exposing United States forces to a situation where city defenders would be interspersed with those said civilians, choose the course of not putting his forces in a position where melting the skin off of children would prove necessary.

In any event, street fighting in neighborhoods where there are, indeed, children -- as is evidenced by their skin, lying over there -- may or may not be a wise military decision. But it is certainly true that the whole child-melting decision, pro or con, should be treated with some gravity, and perhaps methods of combat which do not melt the skin off of children should be considered.

Because melting the skin off of children, as it turns out, is a very good way to turn the opinion of the American population against a war in general:

So in conclusion, I am going to come out, to the continuing consternation of Rush Limbaugh and pro-war supporters everywhere, as being anti-children-melting, as a matter of general policy.

Furthermore, I would suggest to the President of the United States that if you find yourself in the position where your on-the-ground forces find melting the skin off of children to be the preferable of all available options, your military outlook is well and truly fucked, and you might perhaps start considering alternative means of stabilizing the country.

Thank you for your time.

The full Italian report can be seen in English here, and in both Italian and English versions here. (Warning, very large files.)

Tags: Fallujah, Iraq, White Phosphorus, collective punishment (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 562 comments

  •  PLEASE front page this (4.00 / 141)

    Please. I think I can fairly say it states the official position of DKos posters, most eloquently.

    God, I'm at a loss today to deal with this. My country sickens me. Makes me think we don't deserve saving at this point.

    •  I agree with Susan. (4.00 / 17)

      Thanks for highlighting this.
      •  What POSSIBLE reason can there be... (3.96 / 28)

        for NOT Front Paging this?

        That's what I want to know.

      •  Agreed! (4.00 / 11)

        We need to do everything we can to make sure this gets some national attention immediately.  The infamous picture of the child in Vietnam only worked because people saw it.  The press may be scared, but it's time for them to fucking do their jobs or get the hell out of the way so that someone else can do it.

        Sorry, but ... I have been so upset since this first came up on Monday.  I went through shock and I went through crying.  And now I am left with rage.

        •  Contact the media (none / 1)

          They may ignore us, but I had to try.  I contacted every news program on msnbc, cnn, abc, nbc, and cbs (no not fox, I'm an optimist not an idiot)  I asked if the Italian report was true or if Americans were being slandered by Italians.  Of course it's true, but I thought someone might jump at the defend America angle and end up broadcasting the truth.
      •  Why Do They Hate Us? (4.00 / 9)

        or maybe we should be asking:

        How Can We Still Love Ourselves So Much?

        When people condemn some of the more militant and radical stuff to come out of the 1960s they have usually forgotten what these sorts of images do to your faith in the essential decency of your country.  Why do people burn American flags? Because the people who burn the flesh off children WEAR American flags. And no I won't just pin the blame on the civilian leadership. The only way these crimes will stop is when the people at the BOTTOM of the chain of command decide to follow their consciences rather than following orders. The bastards at the top are largely beyond redemption. Does anyone here seriously think that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et. al. even have the moral apparatus to understand the evil they engage in? Assigning moral responsibility to them is an exercise in futility. They will only stop their rampage when they are forced to do so by the righteous anger of the rest of us. Of course the soldiers aren't the only ones responsible. We all are. But they are uniquely positioned to resist most effectively. Until they do so OUR responsibilities are to resist as effectively as we can in the hopes of awakening as many other consciences as possible.

        Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
        "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

        by Christopher Day on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 05:07:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Have you seen (none / 1)

          Have you seen a picture of a starving baby next to a cow bound for Burger King?

          Maybe we can all feel better by taking a nice drive down to the Gap to buy a nice child picked cotton sweater.

          Some people burn flags even when the USA is not in a big war. Of course it is more effective to come to Critical Mass.

          Berkeley Bart Friday 6pm 11/11/05.

          Last Friday SF embarcadero or in a city near you.

          love life, ride bikes

          by common terry on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 07:16:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually um.. no they are not... (4.00 / 2)

          Of course the soldiers aren't the only ones responsible. We all are. But they are uniquely positioned to resist most effectively.

          There's a little thing called the UCMJ and soldiers refusing orders are subject to it. In a war zone and during active combat, there are provisions to allow summary execution of soldiers who disobey combat orders.

          You, on the other hand, have no such restrictions. So the greater responsibility, as a citizen, is yours.

          Like it or not, these munitions are currently lawful to use. And before we all start parsing levels of tragedy and travesty, both of which this illegal war are, we should recognize that the babies killed by shrapnel are just as dead.

          A time comes when silence is betrayal. - MLK

          by dj angst on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 10:20:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Civilians have the greater responsiblity (none / 1)

            I agree with this.  Soldiers involved in combat operations have less access to information about what is going on than do civilians.  Soldiers are enveloped in the fog of war and typically do not have complete situational awareness even of the proximate battle actions in which they participate, much less the distal consequences of the orders they are asked to follow.

            War places the soldier in an extreme demand environment.  Those who have experienced such an environment can appreciate why soldiers must place a high degree of trust in their chain of command and in the rules of engagement communicated to them by that command.

            This is why, in a democratic nation, it is the civilians who have the ultimate responsibility for  the rules of engagement and the orders conveyed to soldiers by their chain of command.  

            Homeland: as in Bantustan, or as in home of the brave and land of the free?

            by homeland observer on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 01:31:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  When supporting the troops means supporting (none / 0)

              ourselves. I agree with parent. It is civilians, and American civilians that gotta raise a wholly holy stink here. We gotta promise the assholes in charge that they'll see these pictures so many times that they'll begin to see them in their sleep.

              If we care about our cause, we better not be threatening war crimes trials on the low level troops on the ground... at least not with the facts we have now. War as one of many options is a crime in and of itself. Blaming the troops first, for these atrocities, is to miss the point entirely. It will be neighbor on neighbot around here, if you think you're going to threaten a war crime trial on your neighbor's kid for being a soldier.

              Focus on the top, where the indirective direction originates!

          •  Erm (4.00 / 2)

            Pardon me but aren't there circumstances where it is legitimate for a soldier to refuse to obey an order?

            Isn't that kind of blind obedience "I was only obeying orders" an opportunity to test Godwin's law?

            You say that a soldier refusing to follow a battlefield order could be subject to summary execution...isn't that what the fucking enemy that soldier is facing is planning on doing anyway?  

            So the grunts on the ground get a blank cheque to toss willy pete around where there are civilians?

            I thought America had the "smartest" military on the planet?  I thought you had smart bombs that could fly through a key-hole and up the noses and asses of their intended targets?

            That's the impression I got watching CNN during Gulf War I and II.

            If that's the case, why are you tossing indiscriminate incendiaries around like confetti?  

            Hunter's diary hits the nail on the head - melting civillians with incendiary weapons is wrong, and no amount of semantic wrangling about treaties, the nature of the weapons involved or anything else can detract from the fact that the USA's indiscriminate killing of civillians is wrong

            Halley Seven, United States Nil - You see, it can be done!

            by ian1973uk on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 03:29:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes (none / 0)

              Yes there are legitimate moral grounds, and the that soldier's commander has legitimate legal grounds to execute that soldier on the spot.

              It's a volunteer army, it's hard to claim conscientious objector when you signed up. And while you may consider the arguement that the soldier did not know they where signing up to do these deeds (if they did do them) as a valid reason, the army does not and it the army that basically owns that soldier.

            •  LAWFULL is the key (none / 1)

              Every soldier has a duty to obey LAWFULL orders.  If the order is unlawfull he must NOT obey.  Even then, we recognize that in some cases, he might have to do that unlawfull act and report it later.  If refusing the order gets you killed there will be no one left to report that an unlawfull order was given and the cancer of a bad leader will remain.

              We can agree that dying from a horriable substance that consumes flesh is a bad thing but until it is unlawfull it is just one more way to die.  It is the dying and the need to kill that is horriable.  Dont pick at the margins on the "quality" of death, stop the killing.

              It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

              by ksuwildkat on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 05:54:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In Hopes of Clarification (4.00 / 2)

                I posted this in another diary about the use of white phosphorus as an anti-personnel weapon.

                I'm a former officer in the US Army Chemical Corps.  My specialty was nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons.

                White phosphorus (WP or "Willy Pete") munitions are perfectly legal.  So are snow globes, bic pens, and ball peen hammers.  Using ANY of them to intentionally injure or kill an innocent civilian is illegal.  Even in combat.

                Yes, white phosphorus CAN be used as an anti-personnel weapon against an enemy combatant, just as we can use flame-throwers, napalm, flame fougasse systems, and fuel bombs.  However, WP is primarily used for illumination, as an agent in all types of ignition sources, and as an obscurant (smoke to hide movement, for example).  

                Use against unarmed civilians with indiscriminate targeting is illegal, despicable, and grounds for criminal prosecution.

                Hope this helps clear up some confusion.

                "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -George S. Patton

                by vmibran on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 06:49:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yep. Very much true... (none / 0)

                  Now imagine yourself in combat in Fallujah.

                  These enemy tactics make the interaction with civilians very difficult:

                  1. Non-uniformed enemy. They don't wear ANY insignia.
                  2. Weapons Caches. They don't have a concept of a "personal" weapon like we do. They don't check rifles out from the armorer and they don't get an Article 15 for losing it. They grab a weapon from their cache, fire on US soldiers, run, drop it back in the cache and go have sandwich.
                  3. Actively use women and children as shields from which to fire weapons.

                  That being said, our soldiers are trained from day one: "You are supposed to do the difficult." I guess this scenario means that it's just MORE difficult than before.

                  But maybe we, in all our moral superiority, can cut them just a little slack.

                  A time comes when silence is betrayal. - MLK

                  by dj angst on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 01:07:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Nails and Heads (none / 0)

              [q]melting civillians with incendiary weapons is wrong,[/q]

              Is it any less wrong to kill a civilian with a bullet?

              [q]and no amount of semantic wrangling about treaties, the nature of the weapons involved or anything else can detract from the fact that the USA's indiscriminate killing of civillians is wrong[/q]

              Ah, there it is. Nail meets head.

            •  Obeying orders... (none / 0)

              I had a friend who fought in Vietnam; unfortunately, he is dead now, so I can't ask him to be sure, but he told me that once he decided he could not invade and burn villages full of civilians and children, he requested other duty in which he would not have to carry a gun. He said he got it. Does anyone know if this is an option?

              "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

              by martyc35 on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 09:25:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Bursting Bubbles!!! (none / 0)

            They are responsible and my husband refused to kill looters in Fallujah when they first went in and told his commanders that it was an illegal order to kill looters and he told all of the soldiers with him it was an illegal order and he didn't have to kill any looters and the I believe he gave reason for the other soldiers to maybe not do it too!  I just saw him this morning at breakfast in uniform still living!  Of course he is an old soldier and younger soldiers are probably easier to intimidate but they are still responsible for obeying an illegal order!

            "People die. Strategies fail. Blame is laid. And we, as a nation, are made to look like assholes." - Brandon Friedman

            by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 06:47:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Can we all PLEASE PLEASE (4.00 / 15)

      make a collective effort to e-mail CNN to cover this story???  Why has nobody suggested a mass e-mailing campaign yet?  If even ONE THIRD of dailykos readers all e-mailed CNN it might FORCE their attention to this story.

      Please people, do YOUR part.  We all need to get this on television in America.  Just go to the websites of these media outlets and just hit 'contact us'.... write a few lines about this story, it is the LEAST we can do...

      "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

      by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 03:32:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CNN is terrified of this shit (4.00 / 11)

        they have cheerleaded the war since Day one.

        They are, in my opinion, worse than Faux news in their sponsorship of this administration, because they are more subtle and sneaky about it.

        Wolf Blitzer should be forced to be buried in a coffin with these kids.  

        "Letting a Republican govern is like letting a pedophile babysit"

        by Nordic on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 03:35:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But surely that (4.00 / 10)

          shouldn't stop us from TRYING???

          We can at least WRITE the e-mails.... it doesn't take much, NOTHING will be achieved if we do NOTHING....

          again, please, do your part... just write a couple lines to CNN today.  Consider it your contribution to the fight to END this.  My moral conscience wouldn't have let me rest had I not written.... we MUST try.

          "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

          by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 03:40:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, please try (4.00 / 6)

            I don't mean to be negative, but I've dealt with CNN over and over.   I used to trade e-mails with Eason Jordan, who was let go as their news chief for being too "anti-Bush".  And believe me, he was not anti-bush.  

            I would like to see a class action lawsuit against CNN for malpractice and false advertising.   If there are any lawyers out there with enough balls to give it a shot.

            But yes, writing them certainly cannot hurt the cause.   It can only help.  

            "Letting a Republican govern is like letting a pedophile babysit"

            by Nordic on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 03:50:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Haven't you heard.... (none / 0)

              CNN is viciously anti-Bush. So is the media. I know because I read it on little green you-know-whats.

              Just a reminder that...well, I don't know. Personally, I never saw a reporter who more of an out-and-out cheerleader for the initial invasion of Irag of than Dan Rather. (He also tearfully called for it not long after 9/11 on the David Letterman Show.)

              But now it's an established fat that Dan is somewhere to the left of Noam Chomsky.

              Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

              by LABobsterofAnaheim on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 05:08:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  "Dan Rather Got His Necklace" (none / 1)

                Dan Rather attempted to explain the degree of pressure put upon them all by the White House. I think Dan's going along in the early days of the war, maybe out of fear, weighed on him. He did do the ANG story and what he feared did, of course, come to pass for him, and for his producer and others associated with the story.

                It seems patently unfair to criticize a man who did find the courage to come out against this regime even though he surely knew it would be the end of his career.  For perspective:

                Dan Rather Got His Necklace
                By: Mary Lyon

                Mary Mapes has just released her book on the ANG fiasco:

                Truth and Duty: The Press, the President, and the Privilege of Power

                Since these Republican insects ruined her career too, perhaps it would be a good idea for us all to give her some support by buying (and reading) her book.

                (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯) It's not too late!

                by nehark on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 06:13:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  he was rich, he had nothing to lose (none / 0)

                  Rather was already at the end of his career and was a wealthy man.  He had absolutely nothing to lose by telling the truth and being uncowardly.

                  "Letting a Republican govern is like letting a pedophile babysit"

                  by Nordic on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 07:57:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Hell of a way... (none / 0)

                    ...to end a long, distinguished career, wouldn't you say? I know of a lot of retired heros though, who retired prematurly since bush took office. Rather is one of the more well known of that large group.

                    I do think the lies and B.S. came upon them pretty fast. 9/11 was handled so masterfully by the bush guild, nearly everyone in the country was behind bush during the first few weeks after the tragedy. No body was into parsing what the Preznit was actually saying for a long time after that. I do wish Rather and others who know better had spoken out sooner.

                    (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯) It's not too late!

                    by nehark on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:10:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Suing for false advertising (none / 0)

              is a pipe dream of mine, as well.  I have never found a working legal definition of "news" -- although millions of Americans have screamed at one time or another "That isn't news!".

              I do know that through the 1960s, TV listings in your hometown newspaper would read something like this:

              10:00 pm -- News
              10:15 pm -- Weather
              10:20 pm -- Sports
              10:25 pm -- Commentary
              10:30 pm -- The Tonight Show

              I have to think there was an FCC-related reason for this.  Maybe that's a place to start.

          •  I'm on it. (4.00 / 4)

            Got all the major networks in my address book.  

            I do not know what weapons World War III will be fought with. World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -- Albert Einstein

            by elveta on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 05:59:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thank you... (none / 0)

              so much.  I feel that so many times Elveta, we determine our OWN level of 'helplessness'....

              As long as we do SOMETHING, we're at least contributing to the solution, vs. the problem.  Non-action, is a huge injustice as well.  I keep thinking of the Martin Luther King Jr. quote:

              "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
              Martin Luther King, Jr.

              "Be the change that you want to see in the world."- Gandhi

              by hopefulcanadian on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 06:29:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  major ntwks' addresses (none / 0)

              Hey, Elveta--Send those addresses along, if you're able.  I get them then lose them...guano on me.  This entire story is making my head buzz, even more than usual.  Thanks in advance.

              These are despicable people, and they do despicable things. Mario Cuomo

              by sally lambert on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 06:48:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  AND front page it, damn it (4.00 / 13)

        So it gets on RSS feeds in every newsroom in America ... they all have DKos on feeds.
    •  Tried to call for action (4.00 / 2)

      I posted a diary yesterday asking for concrete action, SusanG; I was heartsick and disgusted at the photos I saw as well as our desultory discussion without a follow-up plan.

      Got virtually nothing in the way of traction on my call for action.

      I refuse to be complicit in these crimes against humanity.  I am taking action.

      WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF YOU?

      •  I think we should try to shut the plant down (4.00 / 16)

        They produce this stuff in one place.  Pine Bluffs, Arkansas.  If we can get 10,000 people there, we can ensure a hell of a snarl, and media coverage.

        "A person is as free as they believe themselves to be off." - Fortune cookie

        by The Termite on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 04:08:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am up for it (none / 0)

          I have little free time, but am avail. after december finals. I am willing to go down there and do civil disobedience. I kno wthere is an action at Fort Benning coming up - don't know when, but perhaps it could ride piggy back?
          This is so utterly sick.

          "Junkies find veins in their toes when the ones in their arms and legs collapse." - Al Gore

          by parryander on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 04:30:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Start NOW (4.00 / 6)

            While protest rally is only nebulous -- you and the Termite being the first two in the thread to discuss a rally, after all -- there are other things we can do NOW.

            I've already done as I suggested in my diary yesterday; I've contacted the Senate Armed Forces Committee and demanded investigations, audits and revisiting Protocol III of the 1980 Convention on Certain Chemical Weapons.

            I'm posting bulletins asking citizens to get engaged.

            I've contacted my Senator about this.

            Anybody else got suggestions?

            •  Excellent (none / 0)

              I will do the same.

              "A person is as free as they believe themselves to be off." - Fortune cookie

              by The Termite on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 04:57:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  What else? (none / 0)

              I've contacted the major media outlets and my congressmen, but that doesn't seem like enough, so I'm also flyering my campus and the local town.  Also, a friend and I are going to send holiday cards with these pictures attached to as many Senators as we can.

              Any other ideas?  I'm anxious to do more.

              "It is not your right to feel powerless. Better people than you were powerless." ~ Carolyn Forche, "Return"

              by Shauna on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 06:00:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Think we need to call up the Indie 500 (none / 0)

                We had a push earlier this year of Kossacks who blogged, called the Indie 500.

                We need to enlist every blogger in the Kossack community to post a call to action on WP, to post a demand for attention by their Senators and by the Senated Armed Forces Committee.  We could start with the Indie 500.

                Shout out to you Indie 500 folk -- ready to saddle up again?

        •  Plot thickens--or does it just swirl around? (none / 0)

          Ex-FEMA director Joe Allbaugh, predecessor to Michael "I am a fashion god" Brown, is a paid lobbyist for The Shaw Group, which is the parent complany to Shaw Environmental, which has contracted with Teledyne Technologies.

          lapin yesterday on another thread had this link to an October press release regarding the Teledyne award. linked text

          nb The contract to Teledyne is for $10mil. Shaw Environmental was awarded $100mil from FEMA for Gulf Coast reconstruction.

          This signature line confers blanket acknowledgment and correction of any tpyo's that may or may not exist in the above text.

          by oregon blue on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 05:31:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Shut down the companies that profit (none / 0)


          The WP munitions plant at Pine Bluffs is currently being upgraded. (I'm not sure but it may have burned recently in an accident that mildly affected a few individuals in the surrounding area).

          The work will be done by Teledyne Brown Engineering, Inc., under contract The Shaw Group Inc.

          I believe the Shaw Group was on the 2004 list of Forbes Most Admired Companies. Contact Forbes and tell them to make sure the company is not included in any future lists.

        •  If you're intested in visiting (none / 0)

          consider this your travel brochure.
          Happy camping!
          •  Amazing (none / 0)

            I had missed this particular page on the website until you pointed it out, but check this out:

            The arsenal is capable of producing munitions designed to provide friendly forces the capability to stop, confuse, disorient or momentarily deter a potential threat with out the use of deadly force

            And that's it.  It's described by its manufacturer as non-lethal.  And yet its use is clearly not in line with that description.

            "A person is as free as they believe themselves to be off." - Fortune cookie

            by The Termite on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:29:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent Excellent idea (none / 0)

          Closing this plant down will draw coverage to the atrocity. And to our shame. It's just horrible.  A few plant closing, protesting folks getting arrested might push this into the headlines.

          Really, this is a very good idea. Do you have any details about the plant?

        •  Let's wear boxes covered with these pictures (none / 0)

          You want to interview me on TV? Well, you gotta show the pictures. If any reps of a war machine shutdown machine are going to be interviewed on TV, showing these pictures, front and center, needs to be the price of the interview. If you can't show them, Mr. Reporter, I don't talk to you, as you are really not interested...

          Nowadays, we have large format inkjet printers for the job.

    •  Somewhere, Jonathan Swift Is Nodding His Head (4.00 / 4)

      In admiration, and saying "FRONT PAGE THIS!!!!!

      Brilliant writing.  Try to get this published.

      "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

      "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

      by JJB on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 04:28:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I May Not Deserve Saving (4.00 / 3)

      But my two year old son does, and to have his country of birth saved for him. I'm sure you can find a similar proxy to rally your "worth saving" sentiments around.
      •  Just a passing feeling of despair (4.00 / 3)

        I know this country and its people are worth saving.

        In fact, I'm the mother myself of four -- one of them a male, age 19, otherwise known as prime cannon  fodder.

        My first fear is that he's drafted and dies or is maimed himself. Close on the heels of that is my nightmare in which he is forced to perpetuate this kind of horror on others. How are our soldiers going to live with themselves for the rest of their lives? How are we warping these young men and women?

    •  I agree fully Susan (none / 0)

      I fully agree with you. This should make any American sick of the countries leadership. What was once the beacon of human rights is now the same as the Saddam Regime.

      Jamie
      http://intoxination.blogspot.com

    •  Up close and personal (none / 0)

      While I was in Corps I was stationed out of Camp Pendleton with an Artillary unit there. I must have shot thousands of Wille P ( not Willie Pete ). It is an extreamly useful weapon when used on open or dug in forces. I don't think it was ever designed to be used in cities. The bad thing about WP is that it reacts to Oxygen. If you accidently kick it up again, it starts to reburn. Clean up is almost impossible. If it contacts human skin you have to either dig it out with a knife or turn the burn upside down so it burns its way out. It's worthless as an Illum shell, we have rounds just for that with over 1 million candle-power. It does make a great smoke screen. We also have non-leathal smoke rounds.
  •  I don't know... (4.00 / 30)

    ...whether or not I should print this out and hand it to my conservative friends and neighbors.  I'm afraid that the excessive amounts of truth and sarcasm will cause their heads to explode.  Or at the least give them a nasty case of hives.

    Recommended.  Just because.

    St. John the Maverick: patron saint of liars, lobbyists, and mind-numbing stupidity.

    by DH from MD on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 02:50:11 PM PDT

    •  make stickers. (4.00 / 12)

      take the damn pictures, add a caption "another dead child courtesy of the fucking US military," send 'em off to a place like www.stickerguy.com (for example - I'm not especially partial to them), and then affix to phone boxes, coke machines, parking meters, and the drivers' side windows of repiglicans' SUVs.

      be sure and get the "non-removable" vinyl kind that require the intercession of toxic chemical solvents and razor blades to get rid of.

      Ding, dong, the witch is dead.

      by RabidNation on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 03:04:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I look at those pictures (4.00 / 14)

        & compare them to pictures of aborted fetuses used by the reicht wing to promote their agenda & can't find a difference.

        THIS IS AS HORRIFIC AS DROPPING THE NUCLEAR BOMB ON A JAPANESE POPULATION THAT WAS PLEADING FOR AN END TO WAR SIMPLY SO THAT WE COULD TELL THE RUSSIANS WHO WAS BOSS.

        & then cleaning up our history textbooks so that we would all believe that benevolent Uncle Sam wanted to spare 1 million lives invading the island.

        show EVERYBODY these pictures.  it's just disgusting.  

        NO WONDER BUSH WON'T ALLOW PICTURES COME BACK FROM IRAQ!!!

        "We do not torure".  What a lying creep.

      •  Exactly (4.00 / 2)

        These pictures should be on the top of the files of evidence at Bush's impeachment trial.  Every U.S. citizen should see what this madman has allowed in our name.

        St. John the Maverick: patron saint of liars, lobbyists, and mind-numbing stupidity.

        by DH from MD on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 03:18:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Caption: Your Tax Dollars at Work (4.00 / 14)

        n/t
      •  Vandalism (none / 1)

        Defacing private property. Instead of getting all protesty, maybe we can compromise with the baby burners. How about they pledge to melt fewer children in the future unless it's absolutely necessary, and we pledge to go fuck ourselves?
      •  Don't slam the military (4.00 / 6)

        It's not entirely accurate that the burned children are courtesy of the military. It's the political leadership that put the military in the position where burning the skin off of children is the least shitty of a bunch of awful options. Make it say:
        Another dead child courtesy of George Bush, Tony Blair, GE and Halliburton.
        •  I dunno (4.00 / 3)

          I'd rather go to jail for a loooong time than to burn kids alive. Don't the military people have that option? If they just refuse?
        •  Exactly (none / 1)

          These guys are watching their buddies getting shot and blown up. It's hard to blame them for using every weapon at their disposal to get at the people doing the shooting and maybe to stay alive one more day, and if civilians die, too, "hey, it sucks but I don't want to die."  

          Blame the fuckers who put them in that godwaful place and forced them to that horrible decision.  

          I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

          by JDRhoades on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 04:58:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  does every (none / 0)

            wepon include nuclear too?

            American dream is a myth!

            by brown american on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 05:34:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  well... (none / 0)

              i we have the weapons, and we haven't signed onto an internationa agreement not to use them, then we can't run around acting all SHOCKED when the miliary, you know, uses them.  its not the military has been keeping WP in some dark, secret hole in Area 51 or something.

              we're quite open about it.  we refused to sign the international convention on conventional weapons (protocol III) which would prohibit us from using them.  

              now, having a national discussion over whether we should be using them at all is a legitimate topic for debate.  but let's not all act to surprised that the military is using these weapons.

              Liberals drive me crazy. Unfortunately, conservatives are even worse.

              by goblue72 on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 06:04:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The worm will turn... (none / 0)

                the day this nation is at war with another "nation-state" and OPFOR decides to flush out an American tactical position that happens to be embedded in an urban environment (think Seoul or some village in Central Asia).

                They use WP, killing the civ population that are nominal allies of America (meaning that the U.S. supports their despotic leader out of temporary strategic loyalty or corporate trade gain) and chalk it up to "collateral damage".

                The leadership of this nation will shriek, cry, and rent their garments at that event.

                Quid pro quo? Tit-for-tat? Acceptable under Protocol III of the ICCW?

                We will have to take what we deliver. In triple serving.

                People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

                by rgilly on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 12:33:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Would You... (none / 1)

              ...look a soldier in the eye and tell him he should die rather than use one, even if he was equipped with one?

              I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

              by JDRhoades on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 06:33:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  absolutely (none / 0)

                Indeed, any of us should die rather than use one.  And here's a clue: you will die.  Wouldn't you rather do so without having killed innocents so as to delay your own demise?
                •  'Kay... (none / 0)

                  E-mail the Liberal US Marine who posted a diary about using WP in which he said "I remember feeling like the more of them we killed, the quicker we could go home.  And I am positive that is how every servicemember in a combat zone feels."

                  Tell him you wish he'd have died rather than be part of something you abhor.

                  G'head, I dare you.  

                  These are real people here, on both sides of the line, not abstractions.

                  Again, I say...don't blame the men and women fighting to stay alive...blame the faraway men in suits who send them into that hell.

                  I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

                  by JDRhoades on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 07:57:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Wouldn't it be nice (none / 1)

                  if everyone was so noble and idealistic. If I'm put in a situation where there is a guy shooting at me over there, and my options are get shot, or throw the grenade, I'm throwing the grenade, and so are you.

                  Republicans for Voldemort: Finally, a Candidate Without a Hidden Agenda

                  by bnanaman on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:06:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Is it (none / 0)

                    fear of death that drives the wars?

                    American dream is a myth!

                    by brown american on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:57:20 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  strawman -- we were talking about nukes. (none / 0)

                    I referred to killing innocents, not self-defense.  But if the grenade will kill an innocent, then it's wrong, whether you or I would do it or not.
                    •  no, the comment you responded to initially (none / 0)

                      was talking about instances where the choice is die or use the weapons provided to you. I reiterate, if there is someone shooting you over there, you are throwing the grenade regardless of who might be standing next to them. It is unreasonable to put a weapon in a soldier's hand and then expect them not to use it. The problem lies with the people who are putting the weapon in their hand.

                      Republicans for Voldemort: Finally, a Candidate Without a Hidden Agenda

                      by bnanaman on Mon Nov 14, 2005 at 09:23:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you can't read (none / 0)


                        "does every wepon include nuclear too?"

                        "Would You... look a soldier in the eye and tell him he should die rather than use one, even if he was equipped with one? "

                        "absolutely

                        Indeed, any of us should die rather than use one.  And here's a clue: you will die.  Wouldn't you rather do so without having killed innocents so as to delay your own demise?"

              •  so (none / 0)

                you have no problem using the nuclear option?
                Also were the civilians, children and women threatening the military, Oh I forgot they are just collateral damage.

                American dream is a myth!

                by brown american on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:26:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No... (none / 0)

                  I may not like the things some people do to stay alive.

                  But I won't judge them.

                  I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

                  by JDRhoades on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:32:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  see (none / 0)

                    where you are wrong is the thought that i am judging someone here. That is the last thing on my mind. I don't judge the soldier on the ground nor do I judge Mr.Bush. I do not have the power to judge anyone.
                    All I am ponting out the effects of everyones actions good or bad.

                    American dream is a myth!

                    by brown american on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:45:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  would (none / 0)

                you look a soldier in the eye and tell him its ok to kill indiscriminately? and why not?
                We make rules about war to make us feel good.
                What difference does it make if you kill an enemy- whether he is armed with intention to kill you or its an unarmed mother trying to protect her child. an enemy is enemy and a dead one would be one less.

                American dream is a myth!

                by brown american on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:56:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Not our choice (4.00 / 18)

          Well I don't know where to start so I will kinda ramble.

          First, dead is dead and we don't get brownie points for killing people nicely.  Lets be clear - the job of the us military is to kill people and break their stuff or in the proper military jargon "close with and destroy the enemy though fire and maneuver."  That is what we do.  Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to justify any bad acts but its kinda like claiming you didn't know someone was going to be killed if you give $50000 to a guy to "take care" of your spouse.  If you send the US Army somewhere and people start shooting they are going to react in kind (we can debate who shot first but we all know it was Han :)

          So the real question is "did we send the right people to do the right job?"  Again, this is a good debate.  If you want to bring Democracy, the military is "a way" but we are much better at bringing death and destruction.  That is what we train to do!  We are really really good at it.  If you send us somewhere and instead of daisies and planter boxes you get death and destruction, don't act surprised.

          Now, as far as the goodness or badness of using WP on populations - I have to say I have no problem with it at a tactical level.  If you are trying to kill me, I am going to use anything I have to kill you first.  Unless and until you have been put in that situation (and I pray no one ever has to), you can only guess what your limit is.  I was driving from the Palace to the Airport one day and prior to departing we had heard 3 very large explosions so everyone was already on edge.  We decided to leave early and hope our flight could leave before all hell broke loose.  So were are hauling ass down the highway and all the sudden this person pops up in the divider.  5 of us reacted and just before I pulled the trigger someone said "kid" and we paused long enough to realize it was a kid who had been tying his shoe.  Had he been an adult he would have been dead and his death would have been no less tragic.  Only the fact that he was a kid saved him that day.  6 months later the situation had changed to the point where I would have shot him even if he was a kid.  See, they are trying to kill you.  I have a wife and kids I love and I would stop at nothing to keep them from going through the pain I suffered as a kid because my father was killed in Vietnam.  When you are faced being surrounded by people who want you dead all the time you don't climb down from the moral high ground, you run as fast as you can.  I would beat someone with a rock if that is what it took to stay alive.

          On the other hand, on a strategic level this is clearly bad.  It is an image issue.  It is not a violation of the rules of war.  We tried very hard to get non-bad people out.  At some point you have to fight and accept that bad things will happen.

          I am not some warmonger or wingnut.  I am a believer in peace.  I believe so strongly that I have spend more than half of my life in the Army trying to make sure no enemy dares attack this country. The ultimate victory for a soldier is to not fight, to be so good at their job that no one breaks the peace.  For a soldier, war is failure.  We did not choose this fight.  This was not a fight that came from our weakness prompting an enemy to think they could "take" us.  This was a fight choosen by the people, for the people and of the people.  Now it is our fight and we will use every tool we have to end it.

          It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

          by ksuwildkat on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 05:44:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  amazing comment (4.00 / 4)

            I think your post and comment are amazingly well-articulated defenses of the actions of our troops, a "support our troops" at the highest moral level.

            I acknowledge that you've pointed out that this war was a war of choice, and that the military is now pursuing the war "we" chose with all available weapons.

            I can't blame any given soldier for following orders that safeguard himself and his fellow soldiers from people who are shooting at them, just as I can't bring myself to blame individual soldiers who have seen friends and buddies blown apart and then are asked to show "more discretion" when a speeding vehicle approaches their checkpoint.

            Anything can happen in the "heat of the moment."

            I realize that you're not making a "heat of the moment" argument - you're arguing that the military should not and does not throw away tools that it can readily use to carry out the will of its political masters.

            I agree that it often doesn't: I also agree that, as John McCain has said, if there is one man who knows where the bomb that will go off in D.C. or NYC is, he will be tortured. The president will and should order it, and the president takes responsibility for the order. I agree with him that no one will impeach a president for this.

            But in the gray middle ground, I think Fallujah lies. A town where many were unable to leave - had nowhere to go - when the hurricane that is the US military descended on them. Some of them were insurgents/defenders of their home town who were fighting US troops and were going to die, one way or another.

            But I and much of the international community draw the line on these weapons, on these tools that the military has so ready to hand. Just as we didn't nuke Fallujah, even though we have the capability, because the nuclear weapon is too heinous, does too much of the job of death and killing, so too these incendiaries go too far and do too much. I do not blame the soldiers who loaded the WP shells into the guns. I don't even blame the commanders who ordered them to aim. I blame the political leaders who put these weapons into military hands. Tactical nuclear weapons have been taken out of military hands and put under the control of (chiefly) elected officials (in principle). At least, that's the fiction we labor under, depleted uranium ammunition aside. I would like a similar fiction for WP weapons.

            Perhaps I'm disagreeing with you, wildkat. Perhaps we've got a middle ground we can stand on. But the war is not my fight, as you style it, though I am a people who voted. And I have to bow to the majority that voted in a man who approved it, but they didn't put this war up for a referendum. I have protested it. I have signed that it is "not in my name." I support the Geneva Conventions, even the bits we haven't ratified. I will not have my conscience dictated by the majority on this - torture, incendiaries or chemical weapons, nuclear weapons - I won't wait until I have a government that supports all my views before I speak out against them.

            •  Compared To What the US Did (4.00 / 2)

              to the civilian population during the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo in 1945 - torching 200,000 German and Japanese civilians overnight (mostly women and children) - employing WP in Fallujah doesn't amount to much in the scheme of the systematic war crimes committed by FDR and Truman and the "Greatest Generation".

              Helps to keep these things in historical perspective.

          •  asdf (3.57 / 7)

            I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.  This is bad on much more than a "strategic level".  

            But I somehow don't think I can convince you of this, so instead I'll point out a couple of places where I want to challenge you a little.  (By the way, I do see and agree with some of your points, especially the paragraph that starts off "So the real question is..".


            "See, they are trying to kill you."

            Not all of "them" are.  
            (I somehow doubt the child in that photo was, for example.  Although I don't doubt that now there will be more of "them" trying to kill you -- and me -- as word of these attrocities spread.)


            "... I would stop at nothing to keep them from going through the pain I suffered as a kid because my father was killed in Vietnam."

            This is probably going to piss you off (if you aren't already), but that is not my intent.  When you say "stop at nothing", this isn't true.  The fact is, you are/were in the Army, thus increasing the odds of this happening considerably. I'm sure there are many things that you haven't considered doing to avoid this.  I'm fairly sure that you would never consider these options for good reasons (because you feel they would bring you dishonor, or let your comrades down, to ostensibly prevent people from attacking this country, etc.).  This is a moral choice you have made (and perhaps continue to make).  I'm not criticizing it because I don't know you, or the circumstances of your decision... I'm just pointing it out.  You have priortized these things (whatever they are) above the risks of coming home in a body bag.  And you have also prioritized them higher than the risk of being in a situation where you might have to do something that could lead to "melting the skin off of children".  

            Finally, pleaes consider:  what are the "rules of war" and who makes them?  (IMO, it does not make a rat's ass of a difference for that child's family whether or not he/she had his/her skin melted off "legally" or not.)

            Social advance depends as much upon the process through which it is secured as upon the result itself. --Jane Addams

            by shock on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 06:15:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nor does it make a difference... (4.00 / 3)

              ... whether that child's face was burned off by a chemical weapon or by a fire left ravaging after dropping a bomb, or from a bomb itself. If an attack is indiscriminate it is indiscriminate, and it is there that the evil of the act lies.

              This picture illustrates what happens in ANY and ALL wars. Innocent civilians get killed, lots of them, in horrible ways.

              Maybe I come off as an insensitive ass, but I was prepared (in my mind, not my heart) for these kinds of images to come out the moment the decision was made to invade. The pictures are no better or just to me when they are caused from bullets or bombs or shrapnel or fires.

              This is not to say we can or should ignore these deaths. This is not to say that these deaths are just or justified.

              Its to say that war is an inherently unjust and brutal act that should NEVER be embarked upon without the most urgent of needs.

            •  Agree to disagree (none / 1)

              Thank you for your well thought out post.  

              I know this may sound backwards but I decided a long time ago the best way to keep from being the victim of warfare was to be in the military.  If I was part of the process, I had some way to control my destiny.  Rather than being drafted and sent untrained to a war, I could control my involvement or lack there of.  Call it chicken because I am OK with that.  And yes, I know there is no draft but I had to fill out a selective service form when I turned 18 and my first Platoon Sergeant was a draftee so it was a reasonable thing at one point.

              Sitting in the safety of my house I want to think that I could maintain the highest moral standards.  I HOPE that I would not do ANYTHING.  But I don't KNOW that.  What I know is that every day I was in Iraq I was scared.  What I know is that on multiple occasions I nearly killed innocent people because I was scared.  What I know is that all the nobility in the world wont bring back my friends who died.

              I may not have thought of everything but you have lots of time to think over there and much of that time is thinking of not getting killed.

              The rules of war are made by soldiers.  Not formally. Formally they are made by people in conference rooms.  But professional soldiers developed rules to keep from descending to far into the abyss.  If everyone followed the "rules" war would be less horrible.  That would be a shame.  We should never strive to make war easy.  It is a hard, horrible thing that serves no purpose other than to destroy.  I recommend "With The Old Breed" by Sledge for anyone who has read too much "Brotherhood of War" and thinks war is some noble activity.

              It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

              by ksuwildkat on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 06:44:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  War is not the answer... (none / 0)

                ksuwildkat, thanks for your service -- and I agree with your statement, "We should never strive to make war easy.  It is a hard, horrible thing that serves no purpose other than to destroy. "  I have a brother who served in Vietnam at the age of 24, who unlike your father, was fortunate to come home alive.  He's 61 now and there's one thing he is sure of today.  He hates war and thinks it should NEVER be an option unless it's obviously the last resort.  Iraq was launched as the first resort and none of it is your fault.  

                The fault belongs to the Commander in Chief, and those in power who voted for this war.  

                Your service should never be in question, but hopefully you agree that questioning your Commander in Chief is as important to serving your country as fighting for it.

                 

                "Spying on the populace is a giant step toward totalitarianism." -- Bob Herbert

                by hws on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 07:18:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  love the quote! (none / 0)

                  but I will leave the questioning of the CINC to others.  I am on my 4th CINC and I have enjoyed some more than others but I serve all the same. When I cannot, I will resign.

                  It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                  by ksuwildkat on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:20:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Anti-coup... (none / 0)

                    apolitical, just another tool in the toolbox of diplomacy.

                    SOP and proper protocol for someone in a modern Western military that serve at the behest of the executive that is duly "elected" by the citizens of the Republic.

                    But, when you get out and are no longer bound by the dictates of your oath and the UCMJ, whither then?

                    People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

                    by rgilly on Thu Nov 10, 2005 at 12:48:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  "Them" (4.00 / 5)

              "They" and "Them" are the hardest things to deal with.  When you deal with "Them" one on one it is easy to see that "they" are not all bad and in fact only a small number are.  Then you drive down the road doing nothing more hostile than exceeding the speed limit and someone tries to blow you up or drop a brick on you from an overpass and suddenly everyone not in a uniform becomes a valid target.

              I was sitting in an outdoor cafe in Baghdad when some kids drove up on a motor scooter and they stopped and started working on it.  Three other Americans who were a little sharper/paranoid than me and my friends drew their weapons and began moving to surround the two teens.  The café staff suddenly looked hostile to me and my friends and we all put our hands on our weapons.  I know in my heart that if anything had made a loud noise right then we would have killed every non-American in the place. We knew it and "They" knew it.  Everyone was afraid, everyone was devoid of trust.  The kids dropped their tools and put their hands in the air and then moved their scooter out of the area and everyone relaxed.  Once it was clear that the danger had passed the fear in "them" turned to anger.  It was the anger that we were there.  Anger that we had thought about killing them.  Anger that they had no control 5 minutes before if they lived or died.  You could almost hear them think - "I have to do something about this."  That is how friendly café workers become cheering mobs who drag bodies through the streets.  We in turn see "them" and think "did that guy plant the bomb that killed my friend?"

              I struggle with "Them."  I know it is wrong.  I know it is the few not the many.  But which few?

              It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

              by ksuwildkat on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 08:45:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]